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TORAH

Work & Torah Study: Part 2

The other side of the coin: what a life devoted to Torah study has that good deeds alone do not

Part of Torah · 1:00:07

Picks up where a previous shiur left off by asking why, if working people bring Godliness further into the world than scholars do, tradition still has supporters of Torah hoping for a share in the merit of those who learn rather than the reverse. Develops the classic comparison of Torah to food and mitzvot to garments, bread becomes one with the body while clothing stays external, to show that a mind absorbed in Torah actually becomes one with it in a way that a hand performing a mitzvah never becomes one with that mitzvah, and traces this through the halachic preference for the lulav over the esrog and the deeper meaning of the verse 'if you will walk in My statutes.' Closes with a question session weighing how a person is supposed to know whether his or her path lies in full-time learning or in the working world.

Audio Transcript
Recap of part one, and the other side of the coin: the special quality of a life devoted to Torah study

Working. Working versus studying. I know, I get it sooner or later. Okay. So, it's learning versus working, or working versus learning, part two. Why is it part two? Because part one we had a few weeks ago or, I don't remember when it was, a few months ago. And basically, in that class, I brought out the מעלה, the specialty, of the people who work versus those people who sit and learn all day. Because, generally speaking, there are two categories of יידן, as it says in the זוהר. One category is called the מארי תורה, means the masters of תורה, the people who sit and learn all day, and the other ones are called מארי עובדין טבין, the masters of good deeds, because if we're talking here about people who work, so they're more involved in מצוות, more involved in גמילות חסדים, in helping others, and doing good deeds. So they are called the מארי עובדין טבין. And the point of last class was that the one that works is greater than the one that sits and learns. And I brought out, based on what it says in חסידות, that the whole purpose of the creation was דירה בתחתונים, the purpose of creation was to bring Godliness down into this low part of the world and, therefore, these people who are involved in working, they bring Godliness down lower than people who are in a higher level, people who sit and learn. Because people who sit and learn sit in the four walls of the ישיבה or sit within over their ספרים, and they're not really penetrating, bringing Godliness into the outside world, into the secular part of the world. They're involved in קדושה basically the whole time. While people who go out there in the world and work according to הלכה and according to תורה and they do the right thing, so then they bring Godliness all the way out there into the world. And this was the purpose of creation, because if השם would want just holy things, He would not have created a world. He has plenty מלאכים in the higher worlds. So what השם wants is to have a low world and have a דירה בתחתונים, a dwelling place in this world, and that's done through the working element, the working type of people. Also, I explained that when you work and you're involved with physical matters, then you're able to be מברר the ניצוצות, you're able to purify and elevate those godly sparks that are found in such places, which a person who sits and learns all day doesn't have that, because when you learn, you're involved basically in holy matters to begin with. But if you're out there in the world and you're working and you're involved with physical matters, you're able to elevate the ניצוצות דקדושה that come from those places, too. So basically, the whole point was how great it is, those people who sit and learn, who work constantly and work על פי הלכה, על פי תורה, they have a מעלה, they are greater in their accomplishments over the people who are תלמידי חכמים and sit and learn all day. And that's why it says in the זוהר that the majority of the Jews are in that category. Only a minority of people are in the category of מארי תורה that sit and learn. Most of the people are in the category of the working people, because that's really the כוונה, that's really what השם wants. But this is only one side of the coin. Part two is to explain the other side of the coin, because there is a מעלה in those people who sit and learn and are involved in תורה versus those people who are involved in working and called the מארי עובדין טבין, those that do the good deeds and are involved more in מצוות. Because last time, I remember, after the class, someone walked over to me and said that always we find that people who work and are out there in the world hope and wish that there'll come a time that they'll be able to drop everything and sit down and learn, they'll make enough money to be able to learn. The main thing is you're wishing and hoping to learn. And here you're telling me that it's the opposite, that the people who work makes even better. We also know that we have the partnership of יששכר and זבולון, the ones that work and support those that study תורה. And what we always say is that because you work and you support those that study תורה, you have a share in their learning, you have a share in them. And here we're saying the opposite: that what we're looking for, if the people who learn should try to find have a share in what the other people are doing. And I said that it's true that when a person helps somebody else do his job, in his work, a proper way, so the תלמיד חכם who does it, who helps the other person, gets a share in what he does. So we're reversing the whole thing, that the one that's learning should look to get a share in the one that's working. That is true, but we always know that the one that's working and supporting the one that's learning is looking to have a share in the one that's learning. So obviously, there is something special and a מעלה in the one that's learning. And really that's what I'm going to explain today: the specialty, the מעלה of the people who sit and learn all day over those people who are more involved in good deeds and in doing מצוות. Now when we say those involved doing מצוות, we don't mean that the others don't do מצוות. But the question is what is your main focus on? So those that sit and learn, their main focus is on learning versus the מצוות, while other people, their main focus is on the good deeds and the מצוות versus the learning. We know that the difference between תורה and מצוות, and by understanding the difference between תורה and מצוות we'll see what is special about a person that sits and learns all day. We know that תורה and מצוות are both holy. תורה and מצוות are both from השם. תורה is called חכמתו של הקדוש ברוך הוא, it's the wisdom of God. מצוות are called רצונו של הקדוש ברוך הוא, the will of God. They're both great and they're both holy. But we nevertheless do find a difference between תורה and מצוות, that we find that תורה, it says, is compared to bread, or basically compared to food. מצוות, it says, are compared to garments, to clothes. תורה is compared to bread, it says in a פסוק, לכו לחמו בלחמי, which means take my bread, for bread which really refers to תורה. It says אין לחם אלא תורה. תורה is bread. And when we say bread we don't mean necessarily bread per se, but we mean food, while מצוות, it says, are called לבושים, are called garments. And by understanding the difference between food and garments in the physical sense, we're going to understand the difference between מצוות and תורה. Like I said, generally speaking, they're both holy and they're both from השם. And when we get involved in תורה or in good deeds, we're doing השם's will, and we have within us השם, basically. That's really what happens. And even though the מצוות are physical things, most, the majority of the מצוות, I would say 99% of the מצוות deal with physical matters. תפילין is a physical pair of תפילין, leather. ציצית is physical, it's wool. Nevertheless, the מצוות are godly. Same with תורה. When we learn תורה, we learn about physical things. Imagine you learn a משנה, שנים אוחזין בטלית, two people are holding onto a garment, and they're arguing whose it is, and then the משנה says they have to swear, and then you divide it, and then the גמרא goes on to discuss all kinds of questions and answers concerning this הלכה. So we're dealing with physical things, we're dealing with a human being, two human beings, we're dealing with a טלית, we're dealing with an argument, we're dealing with one person who's a liar, or might be a liar, and we're dealing with all these worldly matters. Nevertheless, within every word that we learn, we have the wisdom of God. It is השם's wisdom, everyone is, every word is השם's wisdom. And as it says, and I mentioned this many times, it says in של״ה that people, even those people who believe that the תורה contains godly matters, and it has a connection to higher worlds, to spiritual matters, nevertheless people think that the תורה is מדברת בתחתונים ורומזת בעליונים, which means the תורה talks about physical things of this low world, and it hints to all kinds of spiritual things. That's what people think: תורה deals with physical things, and every word of תורה is a hint, and also contains something concerning spiritual, godly matters. But the של״ה says that's a mistake. תורה מדברת בעליונים ורומזת בתחתונים. The תורה talks about godly matters and only hints to spirit, to physical matters. That means that the main part of the תורה is spiritual, the wisdom of God, and השם took His wisdom and just clothed it into a לבוש, into a garment of this physical world so that we should be able to have some kind of relationship to it, we should be able to relate to it. But every word of תורה is godly. In other words, when we learn a משנה, שנים אוחזין בטלית, two people holding onto a טלית, which seems that we're, it seems as if we're talking about two people holding onto a garment, and this also comes to hint about certain spiritual matters. It's not true. Every word of this משנה is godly and talks about all kinds of kabbalistic godly matters, and it's just put into such a form that when we talk about it, we should be able to relate to it, so we talk about it in this form. It's only a garment to something that's deeper. And therefore when we study תורה, and as I said before this applies to מצוות also and to good deeds, but we're using the example of תורה now, so when we study תורה, we have, every word of תורה that we learn, we have within those words all the godly matters that are there. And the fact that it's put into a physical garment doesn't take away from what's inside. And as it says in תניא, the משל, that when someone hugs somebody, makes no difference whether the person is dressed in one garment, or two garments, or five garments, because the one you're hugging is not the garment. You're hugging the person that's in the garment. The same thing when we learn תורה, what we have is what's inside. Even though we're talking about a גשמיותדיקע thing, about שור שנגח את הפרה, about an ox goring a cow and a question what is the הלכה, every word is Godly and and that's what we have when we study תורה. And the same is concerning מצוות, to a certain degree, but basically, generally, is the same. When we do a מצוה, we're doing something Godly. When we take a pair of תפילין, even though we're taking a physical pair of תפילין, piece of leather, actually a piece of leather, leather straps, and when we put it on, we're strapping our hands with leather straps. But nevertheless, this whole this act is not a physical act. There is Godliness in it, and this is a Godly act. It just came down to us in a לבוש, in a garment, covered in a garment that is physical. But in the physical garment we have the spirituality, and that's really what the מצוה is. So every מצוה is really spiritual. The way we get connection to this spiritual thing is through making, doing it in a physical way. And just to understand a little bit more, now I'll repeat something that I said many times, and you must have heard it from me many times, but I'll repeat it again, because this explains the idea. To understand the concept that every word of תורה is really Godly, and even though when we learn about it, we learn it in physical terms, it's still the same Godliness, the best way to understand it is by giving a משל. When we try to describe, explain something that's hard to understand, you give a משל, a parable. But the best parable to explain this is the concept of a parable, a משל. What's the idea of a משל? Now like I said this I explained this many times, but I'll do it again. A משל is when you want to explain an idea to somebody, and the person doesn't grasp it, doesn't understand it, it's too deep for him. So then you tell him a story. You make a story, and you tell him this person said this, this person said that, and this and then with with the story, the person gets the idea that you're trying to bring out. For example, המוציא מחבירו עליו הראיה. It's always used as a classical example. המוציא מחבירו עליו הראיה is a הלכה, halachic rule, that the one that's trying to take something from somebody else, the burden of proof is upon him. So let's say you try to explain to somebody the concept of המוציא מחבירו עליו הראיה, and he doesn't understand it. What would you do? You give him a משל. For instance, you give him a for instance: ראובן is standing here, שמעון is standing there, and ראובן has something in his hand, and שמעון comes over and says to ראובן, \"What you're holding is mine.\" And ראובן will say, \"It's mine.\" And they're standing in front of a בית דין, and we don't know who's right. They're both, to us, honest people or both liars, we don't know who's right. So we say, \"Since I'm holding it, ראובן is holding it, then we tell שמעון it's up to you to prove that it's yours. As long as you don't prove it, he keeps it.\" In English it's called possession is what's happened to the nine-tenths of the law. That's what it is. But if someone doesn't understand that concept, so you give him a משל. Now sometimes it could happen that after you give a משל on a certain idea that the person should understand, he still doesn't understand, because sometimes the משל is a little bit too deep. So what happens is afterwards, you give him a משל to the משל. And if that's too deep, you give another משל. Finally, you can give him ten משלים. And as you're giving the משלים, what you do is really really you water down the idea. You bring it closer to him, you make it more tangible, you make it more down-to-earth, so finally he'll understand it. Now when a person is going to look at the first idea, the way it was before you gave the משל, and then he's going to compare it to the way the idea is in the tenth level after you gave the משל, sometimes you won't even see how they compare. You'll see looks pretty far. Now imagine if it won't be ten levels, and you'll have to give twenty levels, a hundred levels, one to another, and you start comparing the highest level, the level of the way it was originally, compared to the level number 200. And since it went down 200 levels, it looks completely different. But in truth it's the same. And I explain this a lot of times. חסידות concerning שלמה המלך that וידבר שלמה שלשת אלפים משל, שלמה המלך said, 3,000 parables he gave. And the simple פשט is that in his lifetime, since he always spoke in parables, משלי, all משלי is called משלים, so he gave 3,000 parables. But the question is what's so special about it? A lot of people are able to give משלים. רבי מאיר, it says, gave 300 parables. Does that mean in his lifetime he gave 300 parables? Also, what's so special? A lot of people have this חוש, have this talent of finding the story that will explain an idea. It's not such a great thing. Why שלמה המלך, who was so smart, it says, ויחכם שלמה מכל האדם, שלמה was the smartest person in the whole world, so that's the great thing that he was able to give parables? So חסידות says that's not the פשט. The פשט is like this: שלמה המלך was so smart, his ideas were so deep, An ordinary person could never understand what he was talking about. In order to explain his ideas to an ordinary person, he had to lower it 3,000 times. Doesn't mean in his lifetime he said 3,000 parables, for every thought he gave. So, only some people could understand what he said, some people he had to give a משל, some people give a משל to the משל, but for the ordinary person he had to give 3,000 משלים, which means he had to go down 3,000 levels. And it says רב מאיר gave 300 משלים, it doesn't mean in his lifetime he gave 300 משלים, it means that his ideas were so deep, and רב מאיר, we know, was so deep, גמרא says it, לא ירדו חכמים לסוף דעתו, the חכמים couldn't go down, couldn't enter into the depth of his understanding, רב מאיר. So, in order for an ordinary person to understand his ideas, he had to lower it 300 levels. Not like שלמה המלך, שלמה המלך was 3,000. Now, you lower something 3,000 levels, now start comparing level number one, or before the first משל, as the idea came out of שלמה המלך's mouth, and compare it to level number 3,000, you'll never see the comparison, you'll never see that this is the same thing. And in truth, it's the same idea, just covered, and covered, and covered. What's a משל? A משל is a covering. It blocks out some of it, but it just covers, but it doesn't take it away. It's not the פשט that by the time it came down to level number 3,000, it changed, it was a new idea, then it's not a משל. The concept of a משל is that you give the same idea, you just put it into a story form, but it's the same idea. If you give him a different idea, then it's not a משל. So, when שלמה המלך said one משל, another משל, another משל, and finally came to number 3,000, it was the same idea he said before. And it's just that it looks different, it's covered up. Who does it look different to? To the one that's listening to number 3,000. שלמה המלך himself, when he gave the first משל, that משל did not block anything out. To a person who's listening, who can't understand the depth of the idea, a משל blocks out some of it, and you only get a little bit of it. But the one that's giving the משל, he sees the whole depth of it in the words that he's saying, in the story, he sees it. And in משל number two, he sees it, and in משל number three, and in משל number 3,000, it's there, he sees that it's completely there. The person who accepts it, to him, if you hear the words that שלמה said and you'll compare it, he doesn't see the comparison בכלל, it's completely different. But really, it's not different, it's just a משל. And the same is with the תורה, and the same is with מצוות. That when we learn תורה, the תורה that we learn, as much as we're talking about an ox that gored a cow, and we're learning about two people fighting over a טלית or a garment, and ripping it apart and fighting, and that's what we're talking about, these words are only a משל to the true, godly wisdom that's there. And this is something that's explained in חסידות, and I explained this many times, that this is what תורה ומצוות is about. Now, this is when we talk generally about תורה ומצוות, that תורה is the word of God, it's חכמתו של הקדוש ברוך הוא, the חכמה of God, the wisdom of God, and every word that we learn, whether it's משניות, or חומש, or גמרא, or anything, every word is holy, and it's the words of God. מצוות are the same, every מצוה is רצונו של הקדוש ברוך הוא, it's the will of God, and when we take the גשמיותדיקע piece of wool, and we make ציצית out of it, this is the will of God. It's just the will of God the way it was משתלשל and was מתלבש, it got dressed into physical ציצית. But this is not physical, it's just a לבוש. When we do this, what we're doing, we're being ממשיך, we're bringing down godliness. That's why, if you remember, when I explained the מצוה of נש״ק, of נרות שבת קודש, the greatness of the the great specialty of the מצוה of lighting שבת candles, that here we have a מצוה that even it's in its physical form, it's light. Like this, every מצוה is godly light, but by the time it comes down to this world, it turns into something else. It still has the light in it, but we don't see it. The godly light turns into wool, into strings. So, what the פשט is, it's still godly light, and it's in a משל of strings. But when the godly light comes down into this world into a משל of light, that shows that the change, the descent is not so great, because it still kept its quality of light even in a revealed way down here. But every מצוה really is that, is godly light put into a לבוש of something גשמי. But this is when we talk, generally speaking, about תורה ומצוות in one, putting it in one rule, in one general category. But when we start dividing between the two, there is a difference between תורה ומצוות, which will bring out the difference between the person who sits and learns תורה all day, and the person who is involved in working, which means that he's involved in bringing godliness through good deeds into the physical world, as I explained last time.

Torah as food, mitzvot as garments: how learning makes your mind one with the Torah itself

So, what is the difference between תורה ומצוות? So, as I said before, we find that תורה is compared to food, לחם, and מצוות are compared to garments, to clothes, לבושים. What is the general difference between food and clothes? The difference between food and clothes is that food goes inside and food becomes one with the person that eats the food, as the לשון of the רמב״ם and brought down in חסידות, that the food becomes דם ובשר כבשרו, the food becomes blood and flesh of your flesh. You are what you eat, it's actually transformed in you, you become one. While garments is something that you wear on the outside. Garments have a connection to the person. Garments, clothes reflect who the person is. We learned in the גמרא not long ago, רבי יוחנן קרי למאני מכבדותא. רבי יוחנן called garments כבוד, it gives a person כבוד, and you could tell characteristics of a person, the מדות of a person, even sometimes the level of שכל of a person through the clothes he wears. You could disguise yourself because it's not really the person, but nevertheless, clothes are a way of revealing the person. So clothes have a connection to the person, while food is not on the outside of the person, food comes inside and becomes one with the person. And that's why learning תורה is compared to food, while מצות is compared to garments. When a person does a מצוה, does a good deed, whether it's תפילין or ציצית or שופר, or a good deed helping another איד, giving צדקה, פשוט בגשמיות helping another איד, give a איד פרנסה, do something good for another person, you do the מצוה, but you are not the מצוה. The מצוה is not one with you. The person is not the מצוה. The hand of a person that gives צדקה, this hand did a מצוה. But no one says that the hand is the מצוה, the body does not become the מצוה. Just like garments do not become the person. Garments help the person, do good for the person, they warm the person, all kinds of things it does for the person, but the clothes is not the person. The person is not his clothes and the clothes are not his person. The מצוה is not the person. The person does the מצוה. Your hand becomes close to השם by doing the מצוה, you bring השם into you, but there's no way that your hand is the מצוה. By תורה, it's not like that. When a person learns תורה, his brain, his brain that's in his head becomes the תורה. Said in תניא that when a person learns and understands something, you become, I'll use the לשון there, מקיף and מוקף. מקיף means the one that surrounds, מוקף is the one that's being surrounded. And I'll explain it in a moment. And he says this is the greatest union possible in the whole physical world. There is nothing more than that. Whenever we have a closeness of two things, whenever you connect two things together as close as they will get, you're only connected from one side. If you connect two pieces of paper, it's only connected from one side. You can't be that the same thing should be the מקיף, the one that surrounds, and the מוקף, the one that's being surrounded. When you have two pieces connected, there is something that surrounds and there is something that's being surrounded. Now, you could have them very close and think that this surrounds this, they turn into one thing, but still, parts of it is on this side and part of it is on the other side. You can't have the same thing surround and to be surrounded. That you can't have. But when you learn something, your brain and the thought, the idea that you're learning are surrounded and surrounding and being surrounded. In Yiddish there is an expression when you learn, you say ער ליגט אין לערנען. What does that mean ער ליגט אין לערנען? He is, ער ליגט, he lies, he's in the learning, as if saying his brain is surrounded by the learning. When you're inside something, it means that thing surrounds you, you're inside. On the other hand, we say that the learning is in your brain, so you surround the learning and the learning surrounds you. And that's something it says in תניא that's impossible בגשמיות. There's no such thing. You can have two pieces of paper, one surrounds the other, you can have it both sides, but not the same piece that surrounds it from this side will be from the inside. You could have a whole piece of paper, you go like this, part of it will surround it from the outside, part of it will surround it from the inside, but the same thing should be in and out, it can't be. The only time it could be in and out is if that's it, if it becomes one. Everything in itself surrounds and is surrounded by itself, that, yeah. And he says when you learn something, when you understand something, your mind is in the learning and the learning is in your mind. And that becomes one. In other words, what it means here is, he doesn't say this in תניא, but what it means is that when a person learns something and understands, at that moment, your brain is the idea that you understand. Your brain, the כח השכל, the ability of understanding, which is the brain that the person has, at that moment that you understand a certain idea, it is transformed to this idea. Your שכל now is this idea. And this is the difference between learning תורה and doing מצוות. When you do a מצוה, your hand is not transformed to the מצוה. Your foot that you go to do the מצוה is not transformed to the מצוה. It runs to do the מצוה, it's connected to the מצוה, it's doing the מצוה, but the foot is not the מצוה, the hand is not the מצוה. But when you learn תורה, your brain is the תורה. Because when you learn something and you understand, your brain at that moment is the idea that you understand. But the truth is that this is true not only by תורה. This is true by any חכמה. When you sit and you understand when you learn and you understand science, and you really, really understand an idea, a scientific idea, same thing happens. Your brain, at that moment, is transformed into that idea. That idea, your brain is that idea now. True. So it's not only by תורה, it's by any שכל. The difference is, by שכל of other things, your brain becomes one with the שכל that you understand, but not with the object the שכל is about. For instance, if a person has שכל and he understands how to put together a car, and you really think about it and it really makes sense to you, and you see how everything works, and you understand it. So your brain, at that moment, is transformed into the idea of how to make a car. So it's one with the idea how to make a car, but it's not one with the car. You don't have a car in your head. You have the idea about the car in your head, but you don't have a car. In תורה, being that the תורה and השם are one, the רמב״ם says הוא וחכמתו אחד, השם and the תורה are one. So if you have תורה in your mind, which means that you have the wisdom of השם in your mind, which means that your mind is now transformed into the wisdom of השם, and the wisdom of השם and השם are one, as the רמב״ם says, which he says we can't explain, we don't know how it is, it's impossible normally to understand that the wisdom of something is one with the thing itself, but that's what the רמב״ם says, הוא המדע הוא היודע והוא הידוע, he is the wisdom, he is the one that understands, he's all one. And if we understand it in our brain, that means that our brain now became one with השם. As if saying, our brain is transformed into השם. Which we don't find by מצוות. By מצוות, your hand becomes בטל to השם. If your hand does what השם wants, your hand your hand now is nullified to the will of השם. Your hand did not become transformed to be השם. While by תורה, you, your brain, which is part of you, is transformed to become the שכל of תורה, and the שכל of תורה is השם, so you become transformed to השם. And that's why you find בכלל in קבלה different expressions between תורה and מצוות. By by תורה, it says אורייתא וקודשא בריך הוא כולא חד, the תורה and השם are one. ישראל ואורייתא וקודשא בריך הוא כולא חד, אידן and and השם and the תורה are one. מצוות, it says, are called איברים דמלכא. They're called like limbs. And the פשט is, just like the limbs of a person are not the נפש. The limbs of a person, the איברים, the body limbs, are not the נפש itself. They are an expression of the נפש, they are a continuation of the נפש, but they're not the נפש. And therefore, מצוות, by the person, are not the person himself. The מצוות don't become the person. The person performs the מצוות. But learning, we don't say a person learns תורה. A person becomes תורה. And it says that in the גמרא. The גמרא says that there are two פסוקים, a contradiction. One פסוק refers to the תורה as תורת השם, השם's תורה. One פסוק refers to the תורה as תורתו, his תורה, meaning the person who learned, it's his תורה. תורה דיליה, it's his תורה. What do you mean it's his תורה? It's השם's תורה. So it says, no, in the beginning, when you start learning, it's השם's תורה. But when you learn and you know it, you understand it, it's your תורה, you! Because you become the תורה. There is an expression on a תלמיד חכם they say, sometimes they say, \"This is a living ספר תורה.\" What does that mean? Because since he has תורה in his mind, and תורה is השם, this person, he contains תורה, contains השם in him, as he is. We don't say a person who does a lot of מצוות, this person is a living מצוה. There's no such an expression. Because he doesn't become the מצוה. It doesn't say you should stand up for a person who does a lot of מצוות, even though it's a good idea, a person does a lot of מצוות, but there's no הלכה that you stand up for a person does a lot of מצוות. But for a person who knows a lot of תורה, you stand up. Why? Because the person who learns and knows a lot of תורה, he has תורה, he became the תורה. A person who does a lot of does a lot of מצוות doesn't mean he became the מצוות. But when you learn a lot of תורה, you became the תורה. That's why you have to stand up for a person, because he has תורה in his mind, and תורה is השם, and his mind, that he has תורה in his mind, his mind is transformed to be to be the תורה. So that's something that מצוות don't have. And that's why a person who learns תורה all day versus a person who works and does good deeds, and does a דירה בתחתונים, he brings Godliness into the world, and he's מברר all the ניצוצות, this is something that he doesn't have, and only a person who studies תורה constantly has. The union between him and השם that is there in the תורה doesn't exist in the union that's there in the person who does all kinds of good deeds. This is something that the person who does מצוות doesn't have like the person who learns תורה. And that's the מעלה of the person who learns תורה.

Why the bracha is made on the lulav and not the esrog: Torah study's unique dveikus, and why Klal Yisrael needs both scholars and working people

And we find an interesting thing where this is this point is brought out. It's brought out on סוכות. סוכות we know we have the four מינים, the לולב and the אתרוג and הדסים and ערבות. And we know what the מדרש says that each one represents a different category of Jews. Says the אתרוג represents, since the אתרוג has a taste and has a smell, it represents the Jews who learn תורה and do מצוות. The לולב, that the fruit of the לולב have a taste, but it don't have a smell, that represents those people who learn תורה, they don't do מצוות. The הדסים have a smell and don't have a taste, they represent the people who do מצוות. And the ערבות don't have a smell and don't have a taste, they represent the people who don't learn תורה and don't do מצוות. And the whole idea of סוכות is that we take all four kinds together, and we make one מצוה out of it, and it shows the unity of all the יידן. Now the question that's asked is, why do we make the ברכה on the לולב? The ברכה is אשר קדשנו במצותיו וצונו על נטילת לולב. We don't make the ברכה on the אתרוג. We mean all four, we don't make the ברכה on all four אשר קדשנו במצותיו וצונו על נטילת ד' מינים to take four kinds. But at least even if we'll pick one, wouldn't it make sense to pick the אתרוג? Why do we pick the לולב? And the simple answer that the גמרא gives is because the לולב is the tallest. The לולב sticks out as the tallest, so we make the ברכה on the לולב. Now it seems to be a very strange answer. Because it's the highest, that's why you make the ברכה on it? But the most important one would seem is the אתרוג, and we should make the ברכה on the אתרוג. Besides, anything that's in גשמיות, that's in the physical world, is because it reflects the way it really is in the spiritual level. Why is it that the לולב is the tallest? And the answer is because the לולב represents the one that sits and learns תורה, not מצוות. Now when we say not מצוות, it doesn't mean חס ושלום that he doesn't do מצוות. Because if he doesn't do מצוות, he better shouldn't learn, he's a רשע! And it says that if a person does learns and doesn't do מצוות, then his learning is not really called learning. So obviously when we say the לולב represents people who learn תורה and don't do מצוות doesn't mean he don't do מצוות. What it means is, their main involvement is not in מצוות. They do the מצוות like they're supposed to do, but their main focus and their main involvement is in תורה. The אתרוג represents those people that their main involvement is not only in תורה, their main involvement is in תורה and in מצוות. הדסים represent those that their main involvement in מצוות and very little תורה. But the אתרוג represents the one that involves himself in תורה and מצוות both equally. הערבות don't have תורה or מצוות. So do we see here that who's the tallest? And on which one do we make the ברכה? We make the ברכה on the לולב, not on the אתרוג. Why? The אתרוג has both! The אתרוג has תורה and מצוות! It's the best! It's the best of both worlds, why isn't it? Because the fact that he's also involved a lot, his focus is also on מצוות, not only on תורה, then he's lacking this that the one that sits and learns תורה all day has. And that's why the ברכה was not made on the אתרוג, the ברכה ברכה was made on the one on the לולב, because that is the one that learns תורה. And the one that learns תורה has much more than the one that does מצוות, goes to work, and does all kinds of good deeds. But the one that learns תורה has that connection, that דבקות to השם, that the other person doesn't have, even the one that represents the אתרוג. And that's why we say another see another interesting thing. The מצוה is to shake the four kinds. But where do you see the actual shaking? You don't see the לולב shake. You don't you mean the the אתרוג shake. You don't see the הדסים so much. The לולב is the one that you see shaking. Actually in הלכה, when it talks about the size of the four kinds, it says that the לולב must have four טפחים, must be with one טפח higher than the הדסים and the ערבות, and the reason is כדי נענוע, it should have what to shake. The רביים actually, they used to make a physical shake, that the לולב should shake. What's the idea the לולב shakes? It says in in the זהר, that shaking represents your desire and connection to השם. Why is it that אידן shake by by learning? Is it when you learn you shake, why do you shake? It's all based on a פסוק, by this פרשה, וירא העם וינעו ויעמדו מרחוק, because the אידן by מתן תורה saw, וינעו, and they shook, and they stood far. The אידן shook. And the זהר says, why did they shake? So there it says a very simple thing. A candle always flickers and shakes. The נשמה of a person is like a candle. נר ה׳ נשמת אדם, the candle of השם is the נשמה of the person. And just like a candle constantly shakes, the נשמה shakes. Why does a candle shake always? Why does it flicker? So it says very simple, because a candle, the only thing that is one of those or one of the only things that in order to keep to keep it here, you have to have fuel, you have to have something holding it down. If it doesn't have fuel, it doesn't have something to hold on, it'll leave. Where will it go? So it says in the רמב״ם, that up there, someplace high up, we have the יסוד האש, the source of fire, and fire always goes up, fire always wants to go back to its source. Whichever way you'll hold the candle, the fire will always be up, and that's why it shakes, it's trying to get away. And you have to hold it down by having a wick, having oil, you hold it down. It shakes because it always feels its source, and always wants to go back to its source, while other things don't feel that. Fire feels that. The נשמה shakes, a person when you learn shakes. Why? Cuz the נשמה feels that it wants to go up to its source, like a candle, it wants to go back. And that's why אידן shake by learning. And I always tell the story with a story many times with the מהר״ל מפראג, that once they wanted to test him, some guys wanted to play a joke on him, so they got a שייגעץ, and they taught him אידיש, and they taught him a piece of גמרא, and they sent him to the מהר״ל מפראג to test him. And he came to the מהר״ל מפראג to test him, and he knew perfect. And as he walked out, he turned around to the people around him, \"He's a שייגעץ.\" So they asked him, \"רבי, what made you say so? How do you know?\" He says, \"ער האט זיך קיין איין שאקל נישט געגעבן, he didn't give a shake once when he was reading for me the גמרא.\" A איד shakes. Why? Because you have a נשמה, it shakes. What does that mean? It means that you want to go higher, because you feel your source and you want to become united. That is by the לולב, not by the אתרוג. The אתרוג, who represents a person who learns תורה and does מצוות, because some of the time is taken away for מצוות, away from the תורה, doesn't have the shaking, doesn't have this desire and connection to השם like a person that learns תורה constantly. Because that's the real דבקות to השם is through the learning תורה. So we find another thing. It says in a פסוק in פרשת בחקתי, it says, it starts off, אם בחקתי תלכו ואת מצותי תשמרו ונתתי גשמיכם בעתם. If you will go in my חוקים, and you will keep my מצוות, etc., etc. רש״י says that the word בחקתי doesn't mean laws, doesn't mean מצוות, even though the word חוקים is one of the words that you use for certain מצוות. רש״י says, \"No, it means learning תורה.\" רש״י proves it, because if it would mean מצוות, it says מצוות later, it says ואת מצותי תשמרו, it already mentions מצוות, so obviously it means learning תורה. The question the אלטער רבי asks, so why does it use the word חוקים? חוקים are always an expression for מצוות. So if it means learning תורה, it should have said learn תורה, why did it say חוקים? And the answer is because the word חוקה has another meaning. The word חוקה also comes from the word חקיקה, which means carve out. And he explains, when you write a word, a letter, you have two ways: you could write it with ink on a piece of paper, or you could carve it out in a rock. And the difference is, when you write with ink on a piece of paper, the ink becomes one with the paper, true, it's written on the paper, now there is no two pieces. Before, you had a bottle of ink and paper, now they became one. Nevertheless, they're two things that became one. It's so close that it became so connected, it's like one, but it's not really one. It's ink on top of the paper. If you want, you could erase the ink, scrape it off, and you won't have it anymore. It didn't become one. Words carved out in a stone, the words are one with the stone. There's nothing there but the stone. The word itself is part of the stone. And that's what the פסוק tries to teach us, that a איד, with serving השם, has to be one with השם. You have to be like words that are carved out. But the question is why mention it specifically when it talks about learning? Why doesn't it say by מצוות? מצוות, it doesn't say בחקותי, it says מצותי. Why doesn't it use the expression of חוקה, which means carving out, which teaches that you have to become one, when you when you do מצוות? Now the truth is by מצוות we also expect a איד to do the מצוה in a form that it becomes part of him. But it doesn't say it. You know why? Because by מצוות it can't happen really. As close as you get, and as much as you do the מצוה, and you get close to השם, you are not the מצוה. It can't really be like words that are carved out in a stone. But תורה when you learn, there it could be חוקה, it could be in a form of חקיקה, that you become one, the תורה, you and the תורה are one. And because of that, you and the תורה are one, a איד gets within himself the concept of בלי גבול, which is infinity, בלי גבול. Because as long as you are who you are, as much as you do מצוות, and you're close to the מצוות, אבער טוט זיך זאכן, but you are still who you are, you're limited. You're not you have to בלי גבול. If you are not who you are, if you turn into you are transformed, part of you, your brain is transformed into the תורה, which is השם, then there is an aspect of infinity in you. And that's why it says בחקתי תלכו. חקתי means the חוקים which is חקיקה, תלכו, you will go. What does that mean you will go? You will walk. So again, just in short for two moments, to finish in a few seconds, it says in חסידות that the real concept of הליכה, of going, of traveling, is when it's בלי גבול and infinite. Because as long as it's limited, you never left. If you are still connect- if a person goes from one step to another, and step number one is connected to step number two, and step number three is connected to step number two, and step number four connect to step number three, as you'll be going, you'll be going and going and going, and you really never left. Because you're in theory, you never left, because you're still connected to the one. If step number ten is connected to nine, and nine to eight, and eight to seven, seven to six, and five, and four, and three, and two, and to one, ten is connected to one, so you really didn't leave. When is when is it called that you left, that you really traveled away, is when you jump. And that's only the concept of בלי גבול, without a limit. Because as long as it's גבול, there is always a connection between one level and the other. And that's why it says there is a פסוק, it says, ונתתי לך מהלכים בין העומדים האלה. It says that the מלאכים in שמים and the נשמות in שמים are called עומדים, they stand in one place. אה, it says that נשמות constantly go higher and higher, you say after they pass away and before, נשמות keep on going in higher levels. But as they keep on going, they're always still limited, and they never left, באמת, their first level. The only place where it's possible for a person to jump, it says, and jump from one level to another level which has no connection to previous level, which is the real הליכה, the real going, is down here. Which means the real level of בלי גבול, you're only able to get here. How? So generally speaking, always says through תורה and מצוות, you connect yourself to the to the infinite, to the unlimited, so then you're not connected to this world anymore. But when we discuss the details, it's not in מצוות, it's in תורה. Because תורה, you are one with השם, and השם is בלי גבול, so you become the בלי גבול, and that's where you go. And that's why it says אם בחקתי תלכו, and it means תורה. In תורה, you have חוקה, which means the חקיקה, the carving out as one, and you have the הליכה, the going, jumping, connecting yourself at a leap. Because as if you don't jump, when you go to בלי גבול, you jump. When you go to another level that's still limited, you're still connected. But you go to a level that's unlimited, then you're not connected to the level before at all, and that's in תורה. But the bottom line what I'm trying to bring out here is that as much as I explained in the שיעור last time that the work, these are out there in the world, they have a lot of מעלות over a person that sits and learns תורה. A person that sits and learns doesn't have it at all. On the other hand, who is דבוק to השם? Who is the one that is really connected to השם and has one, it becomes one with השם? That is through תורה, not so much through מצוות. And therefore, these are the people that are close. So when it says a person should want to connect himself to השם, what should he do? The פסוק says, ובו תדבק, connect yourself to השם. So the גמרא asks, how can a person connect himself to השם? השם is like fire, it's an example. How could you connect yourself to השם? So the גמרא says, connect yourself to תלמידי חכמים. I have a קשיא. If people do a lot of מצוות, you have people who do גװאלדיגע מצוות. Why doesn't it say if you want to get close to השם, connect yourself to people who do a lot of מצוות, מרי עובדין טבין, people who constantly do מצוות, and if you're connected to them, you're automatically connected to השם? It doesn't say that. It says, connect yourself to תלמידי חכמים. which is צדיקים who learn a lot of תורה. Why דוקא תורה? Because מצוות, as much as you connect to it, and I'm, חס ושלום, not knocking it, and all the great accomplishments, the דביקות to השם is not really there as much. תלמידי חכמים, people who learn תורה and they have תורה in their mind, they are connected to השם and if you connected to them, then you connect yourself to השם. So here we have the both, we have both sides of the coin. We have the מעלה that we spoke about last time of working and going out into the world and bringing Godliness into the world, all the great things. So you have most אידן like that, and then you have some אידן who their position or their life, their level is in תורה. And with having both of these groups together, then השם has everything that He wants: the proper דביקות through the תלמידי חכמים, the proper bringing Godliness into the world through the מארי עובדין or the others. And together, it makes up a whole complete unit. Now to say which one is better, hard to say, as if you would ask, \"In order to live you have to have a brain?\" \"Without a brain you can't live.\" \"You have to have a heart?\" \"Without a heart you can't live.\" Which one is more important? Hard to say. The ones that learn תורה are the brain, the ones that do the מצוות are the heart, and they're both important, and both equally important for life, for Jews, for for אידישקייט, for השם, for תורה and מצוות. But whoever השם puts into the position of the תורה, that's his position, and whoever השם with השגחה פרטית is put in the position of מצוות and good deeds, is this position. And the two together make up one very happy unit, happy family, and together we will bring משיח במהרה בימינו. אמן.

Q&A: how learning unites you with Torah permanently, and finding your own balance between the two paths

Yes. This unification you're talking about to occur in the person, is it dependent on their level of understanding? Sure. Sure, the more you understand, the more you're united with the idea. This is nothing after not only in תורה, in any idea that you understand. And we said that your brain becomes one with the idea. The better you understand it, the more united you are with it. So if you understand it deeper, or a person who understands it very deep, he is more united with that idea. For instance, if you have Einstein, להבדיל, talk even about secular studies, Einstein who understood certain things very deep, and someone else who doesn't understand it deep, his brain was more united with that idea than someone else's. And the same thing was in תורה. And in תורה more than that, because in תורה you're united not with idea, but you're united with השם. There must be the concept that איהו וחיוהי חד איהו וגרמוהי חד. איהו וחיוהי חד, איהו וגרמוהי חד. So this would be the אור, the light of the kelim מצוות, yes. No, no, that Torah is Torah totally in the brain of the person, but that the light of the Torah You're talking about learning at this level of אצילות No, I'm not talking about learning at high level. No, simple learning! But when you learn a משנה, no אצילות, anything, you learn a משנה and you understand it, your brain is the משנה. And if you understand it deeper, there is more of the משנה in your brain and more of your brain in the משנה, and the unification is more. And if you understand it even deeper, there is more of it. And that's why the greater a תלמיד חכם is, the more he is united with the משנה, with השם. And therefore the greatest תלמיד חכם of a generation, the greatest צדיק which learns תורה, the רבי, that's the greatest connection to השם. But it's through the תורה part of it that this union comes more than through the מצוות. So then what makes We're talking about generally when you talk about תלמיד חכם and about, you know, the צדיק and everything else How do you connect the very limited brain of most Jews that learn Yes, and it turns into תורה. Yeah, but that's what it is! I could ask a קשיא, I could ask a קשיא on not only on the brain someone learning can lose it with that, you can lose it So if you lose it, you lose it. First of all, it's there always in in subconscious, number one. A מצוה you do, and when you finish doing it, it's done! It's over! We say every good deed is נצחי. No, but it's over, you have nothing to do with it anymore. It's just because you did it, it stays forever. But as far as you're concerned, it's over. There is only one מצוה that you do and it stays with you forever, that's מצות מילה. Because it's in the body, and that's it! But every If you put on תפילין, while you're putting on תפילין you're involved. You finish putting on תפילין, you're finished with תפילין! Now there is a השפעה, your hand is הייליגער, fine, fine, but it's not תפילין. תפילין But תורה, if you understand the תורה, it's no, you know תורה in mind. No, that's on מצוה. But תורה, if you learned a משנה, and you know that משנה, even when you're not thinking about it, that משנה is in your mind! That משנה is in your brain! So that's why that's why it says in the, the אלטער רבי says you have to stand up for a person who has תורה in his mind. And it's all based a lot on a one small, little, small מאמר of the אלטער רבי in לקוטי תורה. A small one, it's one paragraph. The מאמר starts starts with the words ונקדשתי, קדוש, והדרת, והדרת פני זקן, that small מאמר. And there he says that if a person has תורה in his mind, you have to stand up for him. Why? Because this is transcript, he doesn't go into these words, but that's תורה. I remember the רבי on יחידות once told me, try to memorize a lot of תורה. And he quoted this מאמר, that like it says in this מאמר, you have תורה in your mind, then you constantly have השם in your mind. And you'll be, and even if you don't, when you don't think about it, if you memorize it, even if you don't think about it, you have it. And even if you forget it, it's still there. We know that, that even science says that, that if you have learned something, it's there. And when you learn it again, says the גמרא קשיא, you learn it again, it's like reviewing. Even if you forgot it completely, it'll be easier the second time because it's in your mind already. So anyway, תורה is in your mind, it became you, and you're at one with it. While a מצוה not, a מצוה you finished, while you're doing, doing it, and even then it's not in you. It's on top of you. It's still on top of you, while תורה is in you and it's you, so you become one. And that's דביקות. From that aspect, it is greater, and there is nothing else like that. Nothing else is greater than learning תורה. So what did you mean that working doesn't Oh, okay. Well, when we said the מעלה of working doesn't mean because you're getting paid. Working means you're out there in the world and bringing קדושה into the world. One that's in ישיבה doesn't bring קדושה out in the world. I'm talking it's not the work aspect. Working, I mean getting involved in גשמיותדיקע things. Okay. But more importantly, how does one decide, okay both are great, and both are the head and the brain, and both are and you have to have both, and you have to balance both. But how is everyone supposed to find their balance? And that's the burning question everyone wants to know, right? Everyone wants to know, how do they know where they fit in? Most people fit into the category of מארי עובדין טבין. That's what it says in the זוהר. Most people are there. It's an exception of those people are not, as we see, physically, majority of Jews are not in the ישיבה, not in כולל. Now, those people are able to get support to live by being involved in תורה, obviously they have that מעלה that they're able to have. And if the השגחה פרטית put them into that position, that's the best ראיה that that's where they belong. If the השגחה פרטית put someone else into a position of something else, then you know that's it. We are not במדריגה to see into our שורש נשמה where we belong. Perhaps in the olden days, צדיקים, great צדיקים would know, they'd look into the נשמה itself. In my נשמה, I can see I belong to this עבודה, that עבודה, we don't know. So the way we judge it now, I mean someone could ask the רבי or ask a, you know, צדיק and he'll tell you I see, look, something else, but normally we judge it by השגחה פרטית. If this is the way the person is set up, this is the way השם wants him to do. See, when it comes to something wrong, השגחה פרטית, השם put me into that store, I have to work on שבת, השגחה פרטית. That doesn't make any sense because it's against השם's will. But when they're both good, you just don't know which one to choose, so whatever the השגחה פרטית goes, that's where you belong. Now, which one, which one, that was sometimes השגחה פרטית puts you in a place, but you're unlucky, you got the lower end of the deal. Now, which one of the two is the lower end of the deal, I don't know. Like the גמרא says that אי אפשר לעולם, the world cannot exist not exist, but without a בורסקי and without a בוסמי, without perfumery, and without a tanner. Tannery, that that that a בורסקי smells terrible and it's the lowest job possible, and the בוסמי is the one that has he always works with a beautiful smell. So you have to have both. But it says, אשרי מי, good is for the person that happens to be the בוסמי, who is a perfumer, and bad is for the other guy who has the other job. But they both you need both. So which one of the two will consider himself I'm lucky that I happen, השגחה פרטית, have the the better one? I don't know. I guess everyone will say on himself, well I'm lucky, I happen to be in ישיבה, so I happen Somebody else will look from the other side of the coin, I'm lucky to do this. Or sometimes it's the opposite: I'm unlucky that I'm in ישיבה, I look at you guys, and some guy say look, that's our work, but they're both it's hard to decide, and it's the השגחה פרטית that decides, basically, that's what it is. Raise children, right? What do you want to raise them to? What do they strive to be? You know, sit and learn all day and then By us, actually it says, we don't tell them to strive to sit and learn all day. No. Truly, I've seen some people Truly, but that's not what they strive, that they should that their job, their business, their life should be to sit and learn all day. They should strive to be ערליכע יידן. That's what we raise them to be. To strive to be ערליכע יידן to do this השם's will. And if it turns out that their it'll be that they will sit and learn all day, מה טוב ומה נעים, very good. If a person has a large amount of money, he doesn't need to work, right? Does that mean he is obligated to sit and learn, or does that mean that he should go out and try to earn more, because he should be out in the world, or It's a lot easier to be the perfumer. Something in the שוק. Definitely have time, sometimes to learn more than others because you have the time, and על פי דין you have to, if someone has the time, but it doesn't mean that he can't get involved in other worldly matters to bring קדושה, אלוקות in the world. It's a very hard decision to make. That's why the השגחה פרטית is the one that does it. Now, certain cases, I have a choice ממש to decide, then every single case has to be evaluated individually, and there is no real rules to say what to do. Right, on the other hand יששכר and זבולון, like you can sit and learn תורה, on the other hand, if a person can't sit and learn תורה, all for the תועלת of the תורה, but there's got to be a תנאי in advance, that you're learning תורה and It has to be a תנאי, it has to be a תנאי in advance. Right, תנאי in advance. Right. But that's a תנאי in advance, because everyone knows you send this money so that they should have a חלק. So each case has to be judged individually. Who should judge it? Oh. Who should judge it? What you have to do is have a person who is impartial, other than yourself, who knows basically the situation and knows you, and then will be able to decide. Most cases, the decision is very easy. The example he gave is a hard decision: somebody who has money and somebody, but most beings, most cases, has to make a living and has a family to support, so obviously you have to go out and work. The only thing, unless he'll get another job or his job will be sitting and learning, which is very seldom, it doesn't work like that. So most cases, it's not even a question. When there is this question, when it comes up to a question like that, then אין הכי נמי, you have to have somebody that the ליטווישע world would call with דעת תורה, or we call with somebody who has a, proper השקפה, and with him you would discuss and you come to a decision as to what to do. But in most cases it's not even a שאלה, I would say 95% of the cases. It's been mentioned before that where you are is I know a lot of people that I know that asked the Rebbe about going to ארץ ישראל, and mostly the case was, stay where you are, because that's where the השגחה פרטית As far as making a lot of money, it just makes it easier for you to accomplish what you're the place that you're in the first place, with your Fine, working through. so you can do it a lot easier, rather than someone who's struggling to make a living and wants to have that Exactly. The חפץ חיים was supposed to work until they got the amount of money for that day, and then he would close up. I never said that about And that's something that Well, see, if you're mentioning also the חפץ חיים, then obviously it's not a פשט. A דרגה. household, right? This is the ultimate level. You have to look towards that level. After you get to feed your children. But no, if to look, it says if a person on one day puts away food for the next day, it shows he doesn't have אמונה. So that's a level. In other words, it depends exactly what you do, how you do it, yeah? On the other hand, it says that anything that's done in a natural form, that's how natural world exists, that's not סתירה to אמונה, that's the right way to do it. You have to live בדרך הטבע. In דרך הטבע, you work and you invest. When you invest money today, it's because you want in two weeks to get more money out of it. Why, you think today what's going to happen in two weeks? Well, that's what you mean, it's מקטני אמונה, you're missing the אמונה. But that's the natural way of ways things to work. You plant today so in three months you'll have grain grow. How could you do I mean you got everything has to be balanced. You can't take things simple to פשוט the way it is, because you take it wrong. You got to have the broader picture and everything together, you come out with a proper product. It's not a פשט. It's an agrarian society when you say you plant today Yeah, well, right. And it says some people even plant for the next generation. That's a זכות. That's When do you speak to a ידיד and when do you speak to a רב? When do you speak to a משפיע? A friend, yeah. Is there any, I mean, the other finds when when when שאלות in הלכה, you speak to a רב. שאלות in הלכה. שאלות in real חסידות, I don't mean חסידות פשט in חסידות, but a חסידישע, a real חסידישע, that's a משפיע. And then you have, but things like someone wants to go into business, he has a choice of two businesses, whom should he, which business should he take, there is, talk to a ידיד. If it's a question of הלכה, then you talk to a רב. If it's a question פשוט what's better, then you talk to friends, ידידים מבינים, and you have to know each case, combination, so you got to talk to both. Combinations, so you got to factor both.

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