Gemara here Bava Metzia דף ו' עמוד א' comes בהמשך to what it says in the Mishnah: שנים אוחזין בטלית, two people come to beit din holding on to a talit. זה אומר אני מצאתיה וזה אומר אני מצאתיה, he says, \"I found it,\" and he says, \"I found it.\" זה אומר כולה שלי וזה אומר כולה שלי, he says, \"It's mine,\" it's mine. So the Mishnah paskens, זה ישבע שאין לו בה פחות מחציה וזה ישבע שאין לו בה פחות מחציה, each one has to swear that he has at least half, ויחלוקו, and you divide it. Comes the Gemara here in דף ו', and the Gemara, בעי רבי זירא, so Rabbi Zeira asks, what happens if תקפה אחד בפנינו, if in front of us, meaning they came to beit din, and in front of beit din one guy schleps it out of the hand of the other guy? מהו, what's the din? And I'll just read Rashi. Rashi says: הוציאה מיד חבירו בחזקה, he pulled it out of his friend's, like with violence, והרי כולה בידו, and now he is the only one who's holding it, and this all happened קודם שנשבעו, before they swore and they got divided. What's going to happen? And the Gemara is going to explain what is behind this question. Let's analyze the case: היכי דמי, what is the case? אי דאישתיק, if the guy pulled it out and the other guy is quiet, אוודאי אודויי אודי ליה, he's modeh. We know a klal:

שתיקה כהודאה. If he's quiet and he doesn't make any fuss over it and the guy pulled it out, so אוודאי that means that he was at one this point he was modeh that really the whole thing is yours. So what's your she'elah? Obviously that's not the she'elah. אי דקצווח, if he pulled it out and as he pulled it out he screamed right away, then then מאי הוה ליה למימר? What else should he have done? I mean, why would we think in a hava amina that this shows that now we don't know, maybe it's considered his? What else should he do? It was done in front of beit din! So what's your question? If he's quiet, for sure he's modeh, and you give it to the guy who has it. If he's screaming, then for sure it's like before, nothing changed. לא צריכא, the case is, דשתיק מעיקרא והדר צווח. In the beginning he was quiet, and then he screamed. So the question, מאי, what is the din here? And the Gemara is going to say the two sides of what we're thinking here. Do we say מדאישתיק, since he was quiet, אודויי אודי ליה, since he was quiet he was modeh, finished. איי, later he screams? Heh, you you you realized, Du host zich gemakht, but lechatchila you were מודה, פארפאלן. או דילמא, or maybe not, כיוון דצווח השתא, now that he's screaming, איגלאי מילתא, that proves לכתחילה דהאי דשתיק מעיקרא, why was he quiet lechatchila? סבר, because he thought, הא קא חזו לי רבנן. Why was he quiet, you could say? He's in front of the בית דין. Why I have to scream? בית דין sees the guy pulling it! So the fact that he screamed late means that it's too late. But here the sevara is maybe he has a good excuse why he screamed late, because lechatchila he waited, he didn't have to scream, he thought the רבנן, the חכמים, the בית דין is watching. When he sees they're not doing anything, so then he has to scream, so it's no re'iya he was modeh. He thought that the רבנן always scream what to do? No, I mean, but when he sees the רבנן are not doing anything... They send a שליח. Yeah, they saw and and nothing's happened. Okay, so we have this question, שאלה.

אמר רב נחמן, so Rav Nachman said, תא שמע, I'll prove it to you, I'll answer your שאלה. He quotes a Baraisa. The Baraisa is also בהמשך to the Mishnah. The Mishnah said that if שנים אוחזין בטלית, they're both holding, יחלוקו. The Baraisa continues: במה דברים אמורים, when do we say that we divide, they swear and we divide it? ששניהם אדוקים בה, they're both holding onto the טלית, אבל היתה טלית יוצאת מתחת ידו של אחד מהן, but if only one guy was holding the טלית, then it's different, המוציא מחבירו עליו הראיה. The other guy who's not holding it doesn't get it, bring edim. If you'll bring a re'iya, which Rashi says בעדים, then you'll get it, but as long as you don't bring, that guy is the muchzak, that guy is holding it. So the Gemara is going to say, from this beraisa we have a re'ayah to our she'eilah. How? Because let's see, what's the case of the beraisa? היכי דמי, what does the beraisa mean? אי נימא כדקתני, if you want to learn it just as it says, peshita, פשוטע פשט, it seems the beraisa is saying if they come to Beis Din, only one guy is holding it, the other guy is המוציא מחבירו עליו הראיה. Well, obviously, everyone knows this klal, if I'm holding something and you want, you say it's yours, Beis Din will say, \"Jump in the lake.\" I mean, if you want to bring eidim, if you don't bring eidim, nothing! So why would the beraisa have to tell us this? It can't be! אלא לאו, must be that the beraisa is talking that they came together, holding it together. איי, the beraisa says one was holding, it means שתקפה אחד בפנינו. Must be the case that in front of us, one guy grabbed it out. And Rashi adds: ודוקא, it must be a case that he grabbed it out, and the case was שתק והדר צווח, the beraisa must be talking שתק, he grabbed it out, he was quiet, and then he screamed, and the beraisa And the beraisa says, what's the din? המוציא מחבירו עליו הראיה. That means that the guy doesn't get it. The guy who's holding it gets it, and we tell the other guy have to prove. It's a re'ayah, answers our she'eilah, that if there was a case where he grabbed it בפנינו in front of us, and he was quiet, שתק, והדר צווח, you see that it's considered shetikah, considered you're modeh, and that's why that guy gets it, and you have to prove. But he pulled it out of his hands in front of the Beis Din. Before the Beis Din, yeah, but when he walked in, they both held it, though. Right. Why doesn't he divide it, then? Go back to when he walked in to Beis Din. Oh, we see here it's not. No, don't. The whole case he is שותק, no? He was quiet. When he snatched it out, he was quiet. So now he is quiet, you're modeh. Yeah, but Good, that's the two sides of the question. Do we say, since he was quiet, since he was quiet lechatchilah, is normally that re'ayah he was modeh. Had he screamed right away, he's, you know, but he was he was quiet lechatchilah. הא you screamed later? Too late. So it's the same המוציא מחבירו עליו הראיה now? What re'aya is he supposed to bring, eidim? That's not the re'aya. Not eidim for grabbing, eidim that it's yours. Now, in order to get it, now you have to bring witnesses that it was originally yours. Now that he grabbed it, that he grabbed it and you were quiet, even though you screamed later, now it's already his. You want to get it, bring eidim. Az gib eidim az s'iz zayns? Nayn, nisht far chapn. Ya, er brengt eidim az s'iz geven zayns fun frier. A vos? Ya, az er brengt eidim if he finds eidim that saw him pick it up. That's the only way he can get it. Till now, if you wouldn't grab it, the other guy wouldn't grab it and he wouldn't be quiet, az it would be יחלוקו. But now that that guy grabbed it and he was quiet, he was he was modeh. So b'meila No, he's modeh. According That's what That's what the beraita says. If the beraita says that in this case, המוציא מחבירו עליו הראיה, that means that he doesn't get it anymore. Yeah. Now to get it, you have to prove it. That means that if you didn't prove it, the way it's now, you didn't get it. Ha you had it holding before, muz men zogn that it's a case a re'aya that if it's שתק והדר צווח, it's called being modeh. The kashya, why do we consider it as being modeh? Or we say no, the fact that he screamed later is a re'aya that he wasn't modeh. From this beraita, we see it's like this. If you could find eidim that saw you pick it up. Yeah, that's the only way. And so? No, but you, he claimed כולה שלי. If he brings eidim that he picked it up, if he could. Ha you say it's very seldom to find such eidim? Az ein hachi nami, so he won't get it. But if he brings eidim, he gets it. But if he claims that it's his, he has to bring clear eidim. Without eidim, he doesn't get it. Which case is it המוציא What does that say? Again, connect the המשך to the Mishnah. משנה אני מצאתיה, the המשך to the Mishnah. אבל באמת not even like the Mishnah. And why not even by מציאה, it could be שנים אוחזין isn't a מציאה? שנים אוחזין is a מציאה. מציאה. Right, and I mean מציאה wasn't even a מציאה. It's only with a טלית. Isn't really necessarily so, because some people are aggressive, and some people are not, and one can come in with the cloth, with the טלית, and the other one who is not aggressive doesn't say anything, but then he leaves it to the beit din. That that's become the שאלה. A person normally should, a guy grabs it out of you and it's yours, you should stop him, you should protest. Why didn't you protest? So we have a sevara here. Why didn't you protest? Because he put it above But that's not for sure. But normally a person protests anyway. Right. So you should have protested, and the fact that you didn't shows that that you're modeh. And from this braita, we try to bring a re'ayah that that's what's the din. That the din is that because the braita couldn't be talking as it seems. It seems it says if it's one guy is holding it, המוציא מחבירו עליו הראיה. I mean, can't be peshita. If one guy is holding it, עבודת היחיד, so it can't be. Must be a different case. So the Gemara said, 'What must be the case? The case must be that they came in together holding it, he grabbed it out of him, and he was quiet, and then he screamed.' And the braita tells us that now you lost it. The only way you can get it back is if you bring עדים. A re'ayah that we do consider it that he was modeh. But the Gemara says, 'לא, it's no ראיה, הכא במאי עסקינן,' and the Gemara gives a different case. The case is, it's not even נוגע to our shmoos tonight, that the טלית means something else, okay. Whatever, not going to confused. The Gemara, it's no re'ayah from the braita, because the braita is talking about a different case, okay. This is the Gemara. Lichora, there's an obvious question on this Gemara. The obvious question is: the Gemara quoted a braita. The braita says that if the טלית is only held by one, the other one is המוציא מחבירו עליו הראיה. So the Gemara says it can't be כפשוטה, that פשוט that one guy came holding it because it's pshita. So it must be that he grabbed it from him. Where does the Gemara get that the case is he grabbed it from him and שתק והדר צווח? Maybe the case is here that he's quiet the whole time? Gemara said in the beginning that if he's quiet the whole time there is not even a שאלה, vadai, definitely is modeh. So, maybe that's the case of the baraisa. Ein hachi nami the baraisa cannot be talking in a case where they came in, one guy was holding, one guy not, so it must be a different case, they're both holding together and one guy now grabbed it, so, and the baraisa says he loses it. Maybe the case is that and he was quiet the whole time. We're trying to find a ra'aya in a case where he was quiet and then he screamed. What's the ra'aya from here? Maybe the baraisa is talking All right, but the baraisa doesn't say anything, the baraisa says there. So, some mefarshim say mamash like this, that that's also pshita, the Gemara doesn't say it. The Gemara says to learn that kifshuto that pashut one guy came in holding, the baraisa can't say it's pashut. So, say even that it was a case where he was both holding it and he grabbed it, and the other guy was quiet the whole time. And that's the case where we say it's hoda'ah, also cannot be, because it's also pashut. So, what's the chidush of the baraisa? Must be a case where it's not so pashut, so it must be a case where he was quiet and then he screamed, and the baraisa tells us that he loses his ra'aya. That's Tosafos. That's kifshuto. Comes over the Ritva, and the Ritva has a different teirutz. Actually, the Gra on the side says like this, the Hagahot HaGra, when the Gemara says it must be שתקפו אחד בפנינו, it's not a case where they came both only one holding it. Must be a case where they were both holding it, and one grabbed it. So, he says וכהאי גוונא, and the Gemara was learned that it's talking such a case, like case of what? That שותק ואחר כך צווח. ואחר כך צווח. And explains the אי בשותק, if I may be talking שותק the whole time, so he gives a different teirutz, and he says it in the name of the Ritva. And he says one word, but the Ritva is ma'arich. אי בשותק לא מהני ראיה. He says the beraita couldn't be talking in a case where he was quiet the whole time, because if he was quiet the whole time, שתיקה כהודאה. How does the beraita say that in this case he loses it, but if he brings edim he'll get it? If it's called הודאה, edim wouldn't help. Wouldn't help. If two edim come and say you don't owe the guy money, and I am modeh I owe him, I have to pay. So, how could the beraita That's why he that's what the Ritva אינטרעסאנטע חאפ. So, that's what the Ritva הא? מיין, I give a dugma. No, then I'll be chayav. Every case like this. I don't want to pay, I say I don't owe, if you have two witnesses I owe, I pay. But if I can't הודאת בעל דין, if a person is modeh that it's not his, let's say I have something and you claim it's yours and I say you're right, it's takeh yours. Comes two edim and say no, no it's mine. Since I was modeh it's yours. But he says the din is that if you're מודה הודאת בעל דין is stronger than two edim. Yeah. So, he says what does the beraita say? The beraita says here that it must be a case where they came holding it together, he grabbed it out, and then we say if you'll bring now if you'll bring edim you'll get it. What's the case? To say it's the case where he was quiet the whole time, that that means you will made it then edim won't help. How does it? It must be the case is that he was quiet and then he was צווח, and here we say we accept it as being hoda'ah, that's why you'll lose it, but on the other hand, if you'll bring edim, you'll get it back. But right away comes up a new kashya on the Ritva. Why is this Why will edim help here? Mah nafshach, according to the side that we're saying that being quiet and then screaming is considered hoda'ah, then it's the same thing like הודאת בעל דין. So, why does we say why will edim help here? The The The Ritva is trying to mechalek, and make this chiluk. That's what it comes out. That if he grabbed it in front of you, and you're quiet the whole time, that means you're modeh that it's not yours, now edim don't help. Mah she'ein ken if you're quiet and then you scream, edim do help. Why? Mah nafshach, if you hold the other side that the screaming shows that you're not modeh, I understand you're not modeh. So, you so lechatchilah you're not modeh. If you don't need edim you get it. Ela mai we're now say saying we're we're paskening, we're trying to pasken from here that doing this means you were modeh. You were modeh? Okay, so why does edim help? So, why doesn't it hurt you? So, the Ketzos says the kushya, and the Nesivos has the kushya, and Nachalas Tzvi has the kushya here. They all have this kushya on the Ritva. תמהו על הריטב״א. What What's the difference? Mah nafshach, if it's hoda'ah? Comes the They answer a good teretz. Sometimes you hear a teretz, m'ken farshteyn, and you give a different teretz. I'm going to tell you what they what they answer, but I'm going to try to answer a different teretz. They answer like this, based on the Ran. The Ran says that when the Gemara says here, two sides, maybe Maybe it's called hoda'ah, the Gemara never meant it's really called full-fledged hoda'ah. Because after all, no matter how much you say that maybe this means he was modeh, but sof kol sof, he screamed later and he has a good excuse why he screamed late, because the רבנן see. So when the Gemara says, so what took the two sides of the Gemara is one side is maybe it's not called hoda'ah at all, that's the second side. But the first side where we think it is called, the Gemara never thought that it's a full-fledged hoda'ah. So then how does it work? Why would it work if it's not full-fledged hoda'ah? Because the Gemara feels that לפועל he had it before, he was תופס it. Is that תפיסה called a ודאי תפיסה? Do we consider it that he held it and it's called his? If it's vadai his till now, now we have a safek maybe he was modeh, a safek doesn't work. No, he had it, but is it a ודאי called תופס that we know it's his? If that's ודאי, then a ספק maybe he was מודה doesn't work. Huh? No. Whatever, but he came holding it. When they come in holding it, now we say it's theirs. The שאלה is what is the פשט it's theirs? Do we consider it ודאי theirs, or it's a ספק theirs and that's why we say יחלוקו? So he says, if we would say ודאי theirs, then even if we hold that this is called הודאה, it wouldn't work, because no matter what it's no one accepts this as ודאי הודאה, for sure. The Gemara שאלה is is it for sure not הודאה, or maybe it's a ספק הודאה? So the fact that maybe he was מודה that it's not his will not work against the fact that he was holding it ודאי. So he says, the Gemara holds that it's a ספק, ספק תפיסה. It's a ספק whether he's considered holding it. And if it's a ספק תפיסה, a ספק הודאה works against a ספק תפיסה. No, בגשמיות he's holding it, the שאלה is does that mean it's ודאי his? When you're holding something, normally when you hold something, כל מה שתחת יד אדם שלו הוא, what you hold is yours, but in this case when you have the argument לכתחילה, he says it's כולו שלי, כולו שלי, so the holding makes it maybe it's theirs, but we're not sure. No. That guy says the whole thing is mine, how do you know half of it is his? That's what they would פסקן, but that's not because of the תפיסה, the תפיסה could be a ספק. So he says, the Ran says that we learn that this תפיסה is a ספק, and ממילא when we say maybe he was מודה is also a ספק. So the ספק can take it away from the So it's not And because of that, he says, because the Gemara's סברא, that שותק והדר צוח is called הודאה, we're learning now it's a ספק הודאה, that's why if you bring עדים, it'll work. מה שאין כן if you're quiet the whole time, it's a ודאי הודאה, then edim don't work. So the she'eilah we had on the Ran, on the on the Ritva was The

Ritva comes out saying clearly that there's a difference, even if we hold that שותק והדר צוח is called hoda'ah, that side of the of the coin, nevertheless if you and therefore if it's hoda'ah, you don't get it. If you bring edim that it's yours, you'll get it. Mah she'ein kein if it's shosek the whole time, which is hoda'ah, edim won't help, and we ask, what's the difference? If it's hoda'ah, it's hoda'ah! It's this It doesn't The Gemara never meant it's a real hoda'ah. Even if we think it's hoda'ah, it's only a safek hoda'ah. For edim, if you bring edim against a safek, it That's the way they answer, which is actually a geshmake answer. No, because there's another side to it, maybe the reason he was quiet is because the chachamim see. The fact that he comes to beit din holding it is is that itself is a protest that that that No, before, but now he agreed. Obviously, that's why the she'eilah, that now he admitted, he he admitted Yeah, a חיזוק בתרא, yeah, he admitted to the truth. But the emet is, I'll try to give a a different teirutz. Well, the Gemara says it's a possibility, הגביהו בהדדי אגבהוה. It's not mistaber, but the Gemara says that's Actually, the Gemara says because that's the possibility, that's why we say yichloku, otherwise we wouldn't even say yichloku. Anyway, that's not noge'a here. Then there's another thing here: there's a machloket, the Meiri brings a machloket in a different case. If we're talking here he grabbed in front of us, they came in together and he grabbed, what would be the din if one guy comes holding it, in person, only one guy, and the other guy comes and grabbed it out, and he's quiet? In person. But this guy who had it lechatchilah, is quiet, shosek. What's the din? So he says the fact that one guy held it, this guy's quiet, and then he after they grabbed it from him he was

quiet, doesn't mean anything. It's not hoda'ah. No, now it's we we give it back to him. We give it back to him, even though he was modeh, they took A guy grabbed it out, and he didn't say anything! It seems like he was modeh, because But he didn't say he was modeh. Seems like he was modeh, because the Gemara says here that if the guy is תוקפו בפנינו and שתיק, the whole time he was quiet, אידויי אודי, he was modeh. So the Meiri says, this is all this whole Gemara with the ספק, with the whole שאלה, הדר צווח, צווח, is all because they held lechatchila together. But if one guy comes in לכתחילה מוחזק, normally when a guy comes in by himself, it's his. The other guy would tell, who are you? But this guy came and grabbed it out, and this guy was, and the guy who had it before was quiet. So the Meiri says, I'll tell you, the quietness means nothing, and we give it back to him. And then he says, ואחרים חולקין, others argue, but he says don't pay attention. But then, and hold that if he was quiet the whole time, then it shows he was modeh, even in a case like this, even in a case where he held it lechatchila himself. Say others argue on me, said the Meiri, and they claim that as long as he was shotek the gantse tsayt, he was quiet the whole time, is a re'aya he was modeh. So this guy who had it before, and they grabbed it out, and he was quiet, so the other Rishonim say, you lost it, because you were modeh. And he says, I disagree with them, and not only he says it, he says do not pay attention to them, he says ולא תשים לב אליהם, don't pay attention to them. But there is a machloket here obviously, the other ones are not zol nisht vos? Tsu vos tsu ton? Dochen paskent vos? Nein, die andere dochen. Nein, paskent they take it away, they let the guy who grabbed it keep it. Keep it, I don't say. Yes, because he was shvaygt, because he was quiet, a שתיקה כהודאה, so you were modeh! And he was quiet the whole time. Okay. The שאלה is what's the sevara of the machloket? We got to find always two sides. Maybe over here in a case like this, maybe... Not that he's stuck quiet the whole time because... because it was in front of beit din, and he figured... So why not here the same thing? Here we don't say that. Why don't you say that there too? Because... because here they were both holding it originally. What's נוגע? But the beit din was there, חזו ליה לרבנן, that same sevara you can say always. That's, yes, so any, both cases would be the same. So always we say, here we say, let's say the Gemara says here, if he, in the case of our Gemara, if he would be quiet the whole time, what does the Gemara say? Peshita! That it's called modeh. How are you going to answer? I was quiet the whole time because the Rabbanan see. It's an excuse, the Rabbanan see, but quiet the whole time, no one will allow... It's not normal for a guy, a guy slaps like, I don't care, I'm not saying anything. Rabbanan, maybe you could say you push it off, you wait for a few moments, but not to just say at all? That's for sure not. Well, they're going to ask him. Huh? They're going to ask him what do you have to say? Do you have anything to say? Before they ask him, we're busy, I don't know, they were doing something, I'm busy, it's not... But you have to have sevara. The Gemara says it clear here: אי דשתיק, if he's silent, אידויי אודי, he's certainly modeh. Nevertheless, he says if that's because if they were both holding, but if one was holding, then the Meiri says that's not called being modeh. And that, huh? But why does the Meiri say that? Is that a normal thing for someone to be quiet the whole time? Right, so yeah, if the other guy is the only, if he's the only one that held it, yeah. See, when there's both and one guy says כולו שלי, this, that's what he's mechalek. We'll see, we'll try to say a sevara here. But the other ones say no, the other ones say that in a case like this... איך פארשטיי נישט, וואס טוט זיך... Nein, nein. No, a guy comes in holding a talis, holding something, and yet a schlepper comes and screams that it's mine, and he says mine, and he's holding it. So normally, as is, what's the Beit Din say? You're holding it, that guy is not holding it, it's yours. Comes the guy and gets a שלעפ ארויס. Says the Meiri, too bad, שלעפינג is nothing, it's his. Aye, this guy didn't say anything when he שלעפט it, still nothing, the shetikah doesn't count. And the others say no, since you were quiet the whole time, it's a re'ayah that you were modeh, and therefore the guy... the other guy gets it. What's the sevara behind it? אבער פאר וואס דארף ער זאגן אז ער איז מודה געווען? ער זאל וויסן... ער זאל ברענגען עדים... Adraba... Nein, לכתחילה דארף ער נישט ברענגען עדים. Lechat'chilah... ער האט ארויסגעשלעפט... Nein, יא, ער זאגט ער איז מודה געווען, נו... A shetikah ke'hoda'ah! That's right, a shetikah ke'hoda'ah! That's what they say, shetikah ke'hoda'ah, if he's quiet, shetikah ke'hoda'ah. That's what he says. Even in a case where there was only one holding. The fact that he's coming in, even though he's holding it completely, the fact that he's coming into Beit Din is... The guy is schlepping him to Beit Din! He's coming in... I mean, he doesn't want, he doesn't need a Beit Din, he has it! The other guy says schlepping him to Beit Din, come to Beit Din! So he come into Beit Din, and then the guy schleps it out! Maybe the guy went out to shoot... Beit Din is good for him... If he's around long enough, you realize the Beit Din is not going to do anything. That's definitely, אבער דאס מיינט דאס הייסט נישט קיין ביזנעס. It's a, what's the payer interpretation? Speaking from experience. I speak from experience, well, we all speak from experience. Anyway, then there's another machloket here, a three-way machloket.

When the Gemara goes to the case שתק והדר צווח, he was quiet and then he screamed, so there's three, a three-way machloket. In the שיטה, he brings these three things. What, how long was it till the צווח? The Nimukei Yosef and the Rashba, they say, very pashut, that as long as before he left the בית... he screamed, that's already enough sevara to say that maybe his quiet doesn't mean anything. It took him a long time? He was quiet for a long time. But the צווח could be even at the end, and still, as long as he was צווח, the Gemara says maybe that the proof maybe that shows that he's quiet is nothing. The Ritva says no. The Ritva says that he has to be, in order to make a sevara maybe that it's not quiet, not the shtikah is not a hoda'ah, has to be that he screamed as soon as he slapped it out of him. If that passed and he didn't and he screamed later, it's too late. That's no, no she'eilah in the Gemara. No, I guess they're fighting, oh yes, then then it's called שותק. Then it's like שותק. No, no, he's not talking about the. The Ritva says he was שותק. When he grabbed, I don't know how many seconds this is, but he says if he grabbed it and he's quiet and then he screamed, which we're נוהג we say maybe the shtikah is not hoda'ah, has to be that he screamed as soon as it went out of his hand. But if he didn't scream then and he screamed 2 minutes later, that's not called screaming, we don't count it, and it's for sure hoda'ah. The שותק was till then, while he's pulling. Then are you listening? Then there's an Ritva brings my rebbe holds even more. That when is the צווח? Before he even finished pulling it out. If he pulled it out already, even if he screamed right away, it's already too late. Because a person, פשוט פשט what's the machloket here, normally say, we follow in such cases, what is the reason of the machloket? This is only gay at the psychology of human beings. How long do we expect a person to be quiet and not be modeh? And that's pashat what they argue. He says a person, some people call a person is quiet, it's part of the best, it's quiet even until the end. And the Ritva says, no, a person wouldn't wait that long. And if he waited that long, a סימן at night, and he's stuck a modeh, he'll khap zich later. Has to be as soon as it's pulled out of his hand. And the Ritva's רבי של ריטב\"א learns that's also too late. A person doesn't do that either. A person will scream, even if he'll be quiet in the beginning, but before it's finished, he has to scream, that's what we mean. So, if it be שותק like צווח the whole time, which means the second he's pulling it. Here it's not. The second he's pulling it, he didn't say. But before he finished, then צווח. So, we have these three these three these three de'ot. So, let us understand what is there, so I say there's guy here, the sevara psychology, No, he slapped him twice. He didn't say nothing. I guess there's something that takes longer to slapp. It's the technicalities for sure, I don't know exactly what it is. A piece of fabric? Yeah, yeah. I guess there's three cubits. It could be okay. Yeah, yeah. So, be'emet, it's it's the the machloket is the pashat is the real pashat is because they were But, on the other hand, we can't say it like this, because a machloket of a בעל הבית is a sevara. Even though this must be the real peshat, but we can of nisht Like always tell a joke, I said a joke that they say a chasidim say a joke. There was this guy who was a big talmid chacham and he learned a lot of Rambam and answered a lot of kashyos on the Rambam. When he died, he came במעלה. They said to him, you have a schar, you're going to be able to talk to the Rambam. Oh. He came to the Rambam, the Rambam thanks him very much for learning my sefer. Then the Rambam says to him, because I like you so much learned, I could do you a favor. Now's your chance. Do you have any kashyos on my on my sefer that you didn't find an answer? And right here, I'm here. Ask me. He said, yeah, there was one kashya he says I didn't find, and he told him the powerful kashya. The Rambam looked at him and he says, you know, that's a printing mistake. I never wrote that. It's a printing mistake. I never wrote that. It's the typing mistake, a printing mistake. So the guy says to the רמב\"ם, אזוי פארענטפערט מען א רמב\"ם? That's how you answer the Rambam? This is the real answer, be'emet, but I think here also the real answer, real peshat what's the machloket is pashut what they felt each one house the psychology, aber אזוי פארענטפערט מען א מחלוקת פון ריטב\"א מיט'ן רבי של ריטב\"א מיט די רשב\"א מיט'ן נימוקי יוסף? Doesn't work that way. You got to find a a knoppel here. So, I I

want to say that this first starting up with this three-way machloket that it's toleh in something else. As I I've said many times in the shiurim that whenever we have something that is considered like something else, there's always three ways to look at it, as the yesod of everything shelichut. We have שלוחו של אדם כמותו. So, the rebbe brings from the the Baruch Taam, from like sefer that there are three ways to explain it. One way is that the shaliach becomes the meshaleach. כמותו ממש. Another way, he says it's not כמותו ממש, it doesn't really become the meshaleach, but the פעולה he does, the מעשים he does is related as if the meshaleach did it. And the third way is the shaliach does not become the meshaleach. What is the פשט שלוחו כמותו? That even though the shaliach is not the meshaleach, the Torah says that if he'll do it, it'll work. So the second way is the Torah said you're takeh not him, but what you did is as if he did it. The third way is no, even what you did is not him. You did it, Reuven sent a shaliach, Shimon, and Shimon did it, not Reuven. Ay, how is he mekadesh Reuven? The Torah is mechadesh a chiddush, that even if Reuven wants him to mekadesh, but he wasn't mekadesh, and Shimon was mekadesh as a shaliach, it works for Reuven. על מנת שקיים את המצוה דמי לחובת הגוף? יא, דער פשט איז, וואו ס'איז דא א חובת הגוף, אודאי, for sure, it's not exactly the same, והא ראיה, מצוה בו יותר מבשלוחו, it's better. But nevertheless, when you did it, the Torah considers it as if you're him. So I want to take from here and say that the same thing is anytime we find when the Torah, Gemara, and we use the same expression, something is כ something else, we could always have these three, these three ways. Lemashal, in Kiddushin, when we learned last year Kiddushin, in the beginning of Kiddushin, שווה כסף ככסף. The Torah says you're מקדש בכסף. Can you give שווה כסף? The Gemara says, yeah, שווה כסף ככסף. So, remember one of the shiurim I explained, there's three ways to learn, mainly two ways, the two extremes, and a little bit the middle way also. Is the pshat that שווה כסף is kesef, exactly like kesef? Or let's say the other extreme, שווה כסף is befeirush not like kesef. Nevertheless, we have a limud that this also works, but it's not kesef. And there's a middle way, it's ככסף, it's a little bit like kesef. We have it all over, טעם כעיקר, or if you remember in Pesachim going back, I said every year and every, we always find something, everyone, you know, every, what do you call it, Rosh Yeshiva has his משוגעתן, his his inyanim, some guys, everything is גברא and חפצא, everything is... This is by me a meshugas, every time we find כ, it's always this. And I'll tell you why, be'emet. In one of the ספרים I wrote once, I off my top of my head, I wrote 35 places in Likkutei Sichos where the Rebbe explains three things in this gang, this this inyan. I'll give you an example.

Example of תוספת שבת. You have the time when Shabbos starts, and there's the extra time of Shabbos. So the, one pshat is it's mamash like Shabbos. One pshat is it's not mamash like Shabbos, but the that the that the, it's not Shabbos, but it's a הכנה to Shabbos, whatever. And the third way is that it's not like Shabbos at all, the Torah said you should keep it, you shouldn't do melachah then, it's on the person, but it's not Shabbos itself. Which is exact same three ways. There's a place, in Maseches Megillah, the מטפחת, the the mantle of the ספר תורה. We have the קדושת ספר תורה. So, pashut, the Rebbe says one pshat, the one sevara, and the Rebbe explains machloket. Every time he says it, it's not stam a וועלטער ענין that you could say three ways, big deal, what's the difference, like the Rebbe used to say, געשפאלטענע האר, וואס איז דאס, so you divide these like this, or like this. There's a נפקא מינה להלכה, and the Rebbe brings that this is a machloket. The מטפחת, he says, the the mantle, is it, according to one שיטה, this is the kedusha of the Sefer Torah, it's mamash like a Sefer Torah? And the other one, it's for the kavod of the Sefer Torah, so it's like an extension. And the third way is that not at all, it's a different din, it's a new din of מטפחת, that has a din that you have to keep it covered on a Sefer Torah. Another example, it says when you give ביכורים, and if you bring a כלי which is not made of gold or silver, just made of of of of of leaves, so the din is you must give it to the kohen, when you give the ביכורים, you must leave it with the kohen. So the Rebbe brings three pshatim. What are the three pshatim? Is this part of מצות ביכורים, it's mamash like ביכורים, מצות ביכורים? Or in order to bring the ביכורים you have to give it? Or it's a separate din: you're giving ביכורים, and there's everything a נפקא מינה להלכה. It goes on and on and on. I said this is a top of my head, and I'm sure if you do research, and you look look, you'll find more. 35, mamash ל״ה places where you have this she'eilah. And from that, I I take out myself to many other places which the Rebbe doesn't talk about. למשל, I in Pesachim I said, the Gemara says, שני דברים אינם ברשותו של אדם ועשאן הכתוב כאילו ברשותו, that באמת חמץ on Pesach is אסור בהנאה, אסור בהנאה, it's not yours, something אסור בהנאה is considered it's not yours. So how could you be עובר בל יראה ובל ימצא? The Torah says, לא יראה לך, שלך אי אתה רואה, yours you're over, but if it's not yours, it's hefker, you're not over. So how could anybody be over? So zogt R'' אלעזר, הכתוב עשאן כאילו ברשותו. What's the peshat? So, we're going to use the two extremes. One peshat is the Torah, it's not, be'etzem it's not yours, I'm making it yours. It's now it's yours. Or the תורה farkert, the Torah says it's not yours, and it's takeh not yours, not farkert, I mean, why, and nevertheless you're over. So it means that it doesn't really become it. And then you have the middle one, it's almost like... And you could go on and on and on with different cases, טעם כעיקר till you have in Yoreh De'ah, whatever you want to go. So, בין השמשות is not, בין השמשות is, it's a safek, it's saying תוספת שבת. מנחה גדולה I once explained is also what, anyhow. Here is one example: שתיקה כהודאה. Good, the same good. So I

think, I don't know if anybody says this, but I think you could say the same three. You could say when you when you're modeh means you say פשוט בפה, you say with your mouth: I am modeh to you, that's the real hoda'ah. You weren't modeh, you were quiet, so we say שתיקה כהודאה דמי. So you could learn it in three ways. One way you could learn שתיקה כהודאה דמי means yes, it's like a like שלוחו של אדם כמותו, yes. Being quiet is exactly like hoda'ah, fine. And the other way you could learn is שתיקה באמת is not hoda'ah itself. When you're quiet, it doesn't prove it. It's ke'ilu waiting, and if later on we see what's happening and that indicates that you're modeh, then the shtikah becomes like hoda'ah, but be'etzem it's not. Being quiet. Yeah, something a longer later shows, a ma'aseh later shows, and shelchut. A shaliach. A shaliach on rev. But by shelchut... דער רבי זאגט אלע דריי... דער רבי זאגט אלע דריי... Lechatchilah... דער רבי זאגט אז אלע שליחות איז די העכסטע מדרגה... לכולי עלמא לכתחילה כמעשהו... Yeah, the העכסטע מדרגה, כמעשהו ממש. And then you could learn a third way. Shtikah is beferush not hoda'ah. When the guy's quiet, it's not enough to say that he's מודה. So how come we say that if you're quiet, then the other guy gets it? A different reason, because if you're quiet, then we accept the other guy's טענה. If the other guy says something: you owe me this money, and there's and you're not answering him, and you're not saying no, that's why mimela he gets his way. Normally when a person taaneht, when a person taaneht something, he's a חזקת כשרות, he's stam telling the truth. The only reason when he טענה'ט, לאו דווקא we give it to him because you're saying farkert. But if you're not saying anything, so it's not pshat because שתיקה when you're if you say בפה, that's הודאה. Farkert, the third way is שתיקה is not הודאה. When we say כהודאה, even though it's not הודאה, but nevertheless the פסק דין would be the same because there's no reason for you to take it away from that guy because you can because you you were quiet, so there's nothing that's stopping that טענה. Mimela I want to say that these three ways depends how you learn. The מחלוקת between the Rashba and the Nimukei Yosef against the Ritva and the Rabbi of the Ritva is how you learn שתיקה כהודאה. The Rabbi של Ritva who says that the only time we say it's not שתיקה is if right away, the third way, is because he holds שתיקה is ממש כהודאה. Mimela when you start off שתיקה כהודאה, when the guy the second the guy was quiet, it's הודאה. In order to take that away, you had to scream right away, and if you didn't scream right away, finish, the הודאה helped, happened already. The the the Ritva who says it doesn't have to be right away, it should be a little later, because he says שתיקה is כהודאה, but not really כהודאה. So you got to wait a little bit to see. And therefore, according to the Ritva, you give it more time, and more time you see, you could also do it right away, but a little later, then you look back and you say, oh he waited a little bit too long, now we say שתיקה כהודאה. The Nimukei Yosef and the Rashba, they learned the third way: שתיקה is not הודאה בכלל. Ela mai? There's nothing to say why shouldn't the other guy win? There's no You're not protesting. So even if he would צווח later, who cares how late is? Now farshteit zich after he left beit din then,

what you're going to say, if he screams five days later it's also? But we give him the latest possible because lechatchilah we never paskened, according to them we never say שתיקה is הודאה because שתיקה's not הודאה. Ela mai bediavad we have nothing to stop him. The moment you scream, as long as you're still in beit din, then there is something there is something stopping. Why a new שתיקה כהודאה in this case or in general שתיקה? No, in this case it depended how you learn the general שתיקה כהודאה. The way you learn no שתיקה is כהודאה when when someone is not צווח. In other words, everyone agrees that if you're quiet and that's it, it's שתיקה כהודאה. The she'eilah, what does that mean? Why is it שתיקה כהודאה? Is it because it's הודאה ממש, you're מודה? Or is it that שתיקה כהודאה the second way, or is it the third way? Depending on how you learned there will be נוגע how you learn here to צווח, when do you have to scream. So the first one, he doesn't even have a second to be No, a second No, it has to be right away, but he gets If it wouldn't be a second then it's not called שתיקה at all. You have a tablecloth, you stop pulling to one side, you have that But no, so there's שתיקה a second, but as soon as you that second that you have the שתיקה, you're מודה. Can't walk away with a chazakah... Why? Why? Yeah, yeah. No, but chazakah... Yeah, exactly. The

first שתיקה is a פעולה. The second שתיקה שתיקה is a גילוי מילתא. And the third שתיקה is is nothing. It's not גילוי מילתא either. It's just the guy the guy gets his way. Like lehavdil in court, if you don't show up in court, he wins. Counterclaim. By default. By default, that's the same thing here. In Torah there's no such thing that you don't show up in beit din you to lose. They'll put you in חרם, they'll give you a סירוב, they'll whatever, but they but they won't say that you don't lose. But in court you do. Why? Logically. Same thing here: the third way of שתיקה is you gain because the other guy's not stopping. But the moment there is a stopping because he's screaming, so who cares he's screaming not right away? In order to need to scream right away, means you have to break the שתיקה. The שתיקה, סוף כל סוף, I want to show you it's not. You don't have to break anything, it's just, it's proved. So now we have at least a ביאור, לכאורה, in these three. I want to say that the machloket between the Mairi and the other Rishonim is also dependent on this. When the guy is מוחזק, the Meiri holds the third way, that the only reason why שתיקה works because there is nothing against it. But if you're going to, if you schlepped it out of his hand, one guy was holding it, and he was the מוחזק, the only מוחזק, so at that point there is no safek, he's holding it, and now you hold of it, he's quiet, there is some, if you learn the third way, there is something that proves that is his. And what is that? No, the quiet is the chazakah, the fact that he held it. The whole, if you hold the third way, we're saying the שתיקה באמת doesn't prove anything. אלא מאי, if you're quiet, the other guy wins, cause there's nothing against him. In this case, there is. You want to take it away from the guy who is quiet, why? Because since you were quiet, so there's nothing wrong with the other guy's טענה. There is something wrong with the other's טענה: the fact that you were holding it by yourself. And ממילא in this case the Meiri says that in this case the quiet means nothing, because באמת שתיקה not. If you say שתיקה is הודאה, then the Meiri is not understood. If שתיקה is הודאה, the guy was מודה. Imagine a guy would be מודה בפה. The guy was holding it, one guy was holding it, and the other guy, and then he schlepped it out, and the guy who held it turns around and says, \"You're right. It's take yours.\" Farshteyt zikh, you take it away from him. If שתיקה is the first way, כהודאה, then it should be the same thing here. Even the second way you could say, he was quiet the whole time, so it became eventually שתיקה כהודאה. So must be like this, that the Meiri learns that שתיקה is not כהודאה. He learns the third way, שתיקה is nothing, just there's no proof, if you're quiet, there's nothing against him. In a case where he was a מוחזק, there is against him. Mah she'ein kein, the other Rishonim, they learn or the first way, or the second way. Whether you could learn the first way that adrabah, that if it's שתיקה כהודאה ממש, so ממש like he was מודה, farshteyt zikh that you take it away from him even though he held it, and even the second way, since he was quiet the whole time, the same thing, that's what you do. When he's quiet, there's nothing against him. Is that like a ברי ושמא, ברי עדיף? No, no, that's for Beit Din. No, if I come and say, \"This is mine.\" It's laying here and I come and say it's mine, no one's arguing, so why can't I take it? It's mine. The same way if I come to Beit Din. Yeah, so that's right, so automatically, so that's Beit Din. I'm saying this is mine, so Beit Din will say, \"Anybody arguing?\" \"No argument.\" So it's fine, it's ours then. He says he's arguing that if some people that are quiet, eydele mentshn, and he is a grober yung, you said all חכמים knew the people, and they knew what people do, and תיקנו את זה. אבל אדם שהוא יצא מן הכלל, too bad on him. The Torah, the חכמים פסקנ'ד על הרוב, and what they saw רוב people. רוב בני אדם. וואס רוב בני אדם? That's a regular person. ער וואלט געגעבן א... ער וואלט געשוויגן? ער וואלט נישט געשריגן, אבער ער האט געגעבן א פאטש. ער וואלט געשריגן שטארק! ער וואלט געשריגן! דאס, דאס! א, דאס ער האט געשריגן, א, דאס וועט... א, דאס איז נישט קיין, נישט קיין דיבור, דאס איז א מעשה! א מעשה. I'll deal with later. Yeah, האב איך א מעשה. So, okay, so comes out like this, that we're holding here that the Ritva is of the second opinion, of the second shita, that the Ritva holds the second... Right, we said before, before we get to the Meiri, we said that the three, the Nimukei Yosef and the Rashba hold of they say it's right, it's late cause they hold the third way. The רבו של הריטב״א holds the first way, and the Ritva holds the middle way. And I just also said that besides that, we could understand, based on this, machloket between the Meiri. Now that we

said that the Ritva holds the second way, we coming back to the kashya we asked on the Ritva. Again, let's remember what was the kashya on the Ritva. The Ritva says, made a chiluk between אם שתק והדר צווח, even if we accept it as hodaah, if you bring edim after we accepted that he was modeh, which means we take it away from him, he doesn't get anything, if he'll bring edim it says we'll keep it, מה שאין כן if שתק the whole time, which is שתיקה כהודאה, then edim don't help. And the question we asked, that they all ask, what's the difference? Why, why, why mah nafshach, if this is hodaah, shetikah kehodaah? It's based on this. This is dependent because the Ritva holds the second way, and I'll explain behakdamah. Rashi here says that this whole sugya in Gemara, and I stressed it when I brought the Rashi, he says one guy grabbed it from the other guy, now he's holding it alone, and all this happened קודם שנשבעו. Before they swore. Why? What happens if they swore already, and then this happened? Why wouldn't it be the same she'eilah? Maybe he was modeh to him, maybe not. So we take out from here, and it's mashma from other rishonim also, that if it's vadai mine, then the shetikah wouldn't help. Does he still keep it? He still keeps it. Yeah, I mean help, that's what I mean, the shetikah wouldn't hurt. If it's vadai mine, and so after he swore, after he swore and Beit Din divided it, now it's vadai yours, we don't care what, now it's vadai, now now this whole thing won't won't fit. So we

see a klal from here, so keep this this klal in mind, that if if it's vadai yours, eidim eidim will not help. What's an amirah you said? Huh? Is that having that's having a Well, see, the amirah is not vadai, amirah is chazakah only. Oh, okay. The amirah is a chazakah. Here we're talking about vadai, or when Beit Din gave, or let's say eidim, if eidim come and say it's yours, let's say a case like this, eidim come and say it's yours, and there is shetikah, it won't help. That's what we take out from here. הודאת בעל דין helps. If you're actually modeh that it's not mine, and eidim come and say that it is yours, it's not yours, because you were modeh. But here, by shetikah, which is ke-hoda'ah, if it's vadai yours, it won't work. And your shetikah won't work, and who will we accept? We'll give it back to you. We'll give it, even if you're modeh, we'll give it to you. And this could be the yesod of the difference between the two cases, and it's all because we learn like the second way. The Ritva learns like the second way. That means like this: in a case where he was quiet the whole time, no, let's go to the other case, in a case with שותק והדר צווח. שותק והדר צווח, so here, and then eidim come. So here, we will accept the eidim. You know why we'll accept the eidim? Because since when the eidim come, we know it's vadai his, so the shetikah, it doesn't count. So and that's what the Ritva says, שותק והדר צווח, המוציא מחבירו עליו הראיה, you can bring edim and we'll keep do like the edim. Why will we do like the edim? For this reason, because when the edim come, it's vadai yours, and if it's vadai yours, your shtikah doesn't count because you weren't modeh b'foal. Right, but he never he never screamed. Huh? He never screamed. No, שותק והדר צווח. He was quiet and he screamed. And if he didn't scream? We're getting to that, it's going to be the next case, no? If he's quiet and he screamed, first we finish screamed. So we're saying edim will come, you will get it, even though you were quiet, and even though we call shtikah k'hodaah, we're saying according to the fact that, but because it was vadai. In the case where you were quiet the whole time, as much as we say שתיקה כהודאה, וממילא and now you have edim, but we have something to prove against you, an extra thing. And what is that? Why didn't you scream at all? Quiet. You were quiet the whole time. So that's what we call sometimes a ריעותא. So even though this is a case where you have edim, and edim your hodaah doesn't help your shtikah k'hodaah, this is a case where there were edim. And so we're saying in this case, we will not accept the edim. Because why will we not accept the edim? Because your shtikah is a stronger shtikah, because you didn't scream at all. Why can't you say that he was just waiting for the edim? He's waiting We could say a lot of things. That's what the Gemara says, all kinds of סברות. He didn't have to scream. He didn't know edim We're saying even though that he screamed already, the screaming, we're going now according to the klal that if you screamed, it's called even though you screamed, it's called hodaah. But still b'foal you screamed, so your hodaah is not so strong. And therefore, if your hodaah is not so strong, and the edim come, it's yours. But if in a case where you didn't scream, then if the edim come, it won't help, because your hodaah is a stronger hodaah. Why? Because we have a vadai. Edim come, it's vadai. So this answers the difference between the two, but this only fits if we hold shtikah is not כהודאה ממש. If shtikah would be כהודאה ממש, we don't care whether you screamed. Even אם הוא צווח. The moment you were modeh, even הדר וצווח, עדים shouldn't help. So I'm saying the whole thing I'm saying now, this set is based on what I explained in the three ways. And the Ritva is the one who learns the middle way, not the first way. He learns the middle way, so he can't say if we'd learn the first way, then it's a good קשיא, the קשיא on the Ritva is a good קשיא. If it's the first way, meaning שתיקה is like you said, and if you said, עדים don't help. So what's the חילוק שותק והדר צווח? Because even if צווח, it doesn't the צווח doesn't if it's הודאה, we disregard the צווח, and you were quiet, it's called הודאה, you were מודה. So what's the חילוק? But now that we said that he holds the second way, that means that it's not really שתיקה כהודאה ממש, אלא it depends on later, so here we can find a difference. That's why the Ritva makes the difference: if it's הדר צווח, so then עדים come, that we will accept the עדים. Why? Because it's a ודאי, so your שתיקה doesn't, and there was a צווח. But if there was no צווח, so as much as there was a ודאי because עדים say, and against a ודאי שתיקה doesn't help, but not a case like this. Against a ודאי שתיקה doesn't help, but if you Like it took extreme that there was no צוואה at all, your שתיקה helps. So that the צוואה breaks this שתיקה down. Yeah, it makes the שתיקה דאך שוואכער. Right. And ממילא שוואכער, we accept the עדים. I also feel we can pasken a דבר like that. When someone get all his fortune, what is it? Is it not also possible, in other words, that if he was quiet, he was waiting for the עדים to come to prove his point? Care what he says. The Gemara, חכמים decide what they see. Nobody brought that up here? So the דרייוועג איז אזוי: מ'האט גערעדט די זעלבע זאך, or the other extreme, אז ממש נישט. אויב ער דאכט, א מענטש אן כח וואלט געוואלט רעדן, שוין פונקט, otherwise wouldn't say it. But either way, that's in קיבוץ. Liver paste.

Ah, liver paste. Oh, you hear? קיבוץ. I went out to look for the sefer so that you could have it in front of you. And I thought, and I think it's י״ז. You showed me the other day with the 35. Yeah, yeah, yeah. י״ז. I found every one but that one. Oh, really? Yeah, so I said I couldn't take too long because takes a lot of bother. He took the trouble for bonus, father.