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EIN YAAKOV

Yoma 22b

Was King Shaul's Census Really a Sin?

Part of Ein Yaakov · 11:09

A sugya on the prohibition against directly counting the Jewish people, Shaul's workaround of counting with pottery shards, and the halachic structure of Krias Shema.

Audio Transcript
What does "ื‘ื–ืง" really mean?

here it says, \"ื•ื™ืคืงื“ื ื‘ื‘ื–ืง\", he counted them lechatchila with these pieces. Did Hashem count them? Huh? Did Hashem count the Yidden? When did Hashem count Yidden? Moshe Rabbeinu. Yeah. Yeah, that could be. Well, that's Yeah, but that's because Moshe to count someplace here. Moshe Rabbeinu, that's by the Shevet Levi. Yeah. ืžืชืงื™ืฃ ืœื” Rav Ashi, Rav Ashi asks: ื•ืžืื™? How do you know ื“ื”ืื™ ื‘ื–ืง ืœื™ืฉื ื ื“ื‘ื™ื–ืงื ื”ื•ื, how do you know the word Bezek means these pieces of of of ื—ืจืก? ื“ื™ืœืžื ืฉืžื ื“ืžืชื ื”ื•ื, maybe it's the name of a city. He counted them in the city of Bezek. ื›ื“ื›ืชื™ื‘, there is a pasuk later, \"ื•ื™ืžืฆืื• ืืช ืื“ื ื™ ื‘ื–ืง ื‘ื‘ื–ืง\", they found the people of Bezek in Bezek. There is a name of a city called Bezek. Maybe that's what it means. So he says you're right. From there is ืชืงื not a re'aya. ืืœื ืžื”ื›ื, another pasuk: \"ื•ื™ืฉืžืข ืฉืื•ืœ ื•ื™ืคืงื“ื ื‘ื˜ืœืื™ื\", he counted them by sheep. Each one had to give a sheep. And here, the sheep means they they they gave things and he didn't count them out outright. That's not a city.

Is counting Israel a prohibited act?

ืืžืจ ืจ' ืืœืขื–ืจ, ืจ' Elazar said, \"ื›ืœ ื”ืžื•ื ื” ืืช ื™ืฉืจืืœ ืขื•ื‘ืจ ื‘ืœืื•\". If you count the Yidden you're over on a lav. ืฉื ืืžืจ, it says, \"ื•ื”ื™ื” ืžืกืคืจ ื‘ื ื™ ื™ืฉืจืืœ ื›ื—ื•ืœ ื”ื™ื ืืฉืจ ืœื ื™ืžื“\". Emet, it's a berachah that Mashiach will come. The time will be that the amount of Yidden will be so much like the sand of the ื™ื that you can't count. But in the meantime it says, \"ืืฉืจ ืœื ื™ืžื“\". It says don't count. Rav Nachman bar Yitzchak ืืžืจ, Rav Nachman bar Yitzchak, \"ืขื•ื‘ืจ ื‘ืฉื ื™ ืœืื•ื™ืŸ\". Two lavin. ืฉื ืืžืจ, the pasuk says not just, \"ืœื ื™ืžื“\". \"ืืฉืจ ืœื ื™ืžื“ ื•ืœื ื™ืกืคืจ\". It says twice not counting, different expressions. So mimela if you count, over on two lavin. ืืžืจ Rav Shmuel bar Nachmani, Rav Shmuel bar Nachmani says: ืจ' ื™ื•ื ืชืŸ ืจืžื™. Rabbi' Yonatan asked a question, a contradiction between two pesukim. It'd have to be two different things if it's two ืœืื•ื™ืŸ. What are the two ืœืื•ื™ืŸ? No, two ืœืื•ื™ืŸ could be the same thing. Yeah? Sure. A lot of times Rashi says why did the Torah repeat something? To be over on it said two ืœืื•ื™ืŸ. It's exactly the same. Even if it's the same, yeah. So we get Makkos twice? Makkos twice, yeah, that's the din, yeah. Rabbi' Yonatan asked a question. It says in the pasuk, \"ื•ื”ื™ื” ืžืกืคืจ ื‘ื ื™ ื™ืฉืจืืœ ื›ื—ื•ืœ ื”ื™ื\". This pasuk itself has a contradiction. The amount of Yidden will be like the sand of the sea which you can't count. Here you're saying a mount. It's a lot, the sand of the sea, and then ื›ืชื™ื‘ it says, \"ืืฉืจ ืœื ื™ืžื“ ื•ืœื ื™ืกืคืจ\", you won't be able to count. So which one is it? The Gemara answers, ืœื ืงืฉื™ื, it's not a kashya. ื›ืืŸ ื‘ื–ืžืŸ ืฉืขื•ืฉื™ืŸ ื™ืฉืจืืœ ืจืฆื•ื ื• ืฉืœ ืžืงื•ื. One is when the Yidden do the will of Hashem which is the one that says you will not be count not able to be counted at all. In other words, they'll be basically ื‘ืœื™ ื’ื‘ื•ืœ, there'll be no limit. ื•ื›ืืŸ, the one that says that it will be so much, but it doesn't say they won't be able to count, ื‘ื–ืžืŸ ืฉืื™ืŸ ืขื•ืฉื™ืŸ ื™ืฉืจืืœ ืจืฆื•ื ื• ืฉืœ ืžืงื•ื, when the Yidden don't do the ratzon of the Aibeshter. Only in the days of Mashiach, right? Yeah. Only in the days. Yeah, cuz it never happened. If we're doing the will, but there'll be like the sand of the sea meaning that it's countable. They are really It's countable, but it's impossible. But it's No, no, it's possible. It's still It's so much, but it's a limit. If the Yidden are not doing the will of Hashem, why would there be so much? So the pshat is ื—ืกื™ื“ื•ืช ื˜ื™ื™ื˜ืฉ'es. Not doing the will of Hashem doesn't mean you don't keep mitzvot. What does he mean? What does not doing the will of Hashem So this it's based all on the Gemara. The Gemara says, and the Gemara with the with the Maharsha, it says in regarding the first parsha of Keriat Shema, the second parsha of Keriat Shema. The

Keriat Shema: work required when we ignore Hashemโ€™s will

Gemara says the second parsha of Keriat Shema says, \"ื•ืืกืคืช ื“ื’ื ืš\". So you have to work. First parsha doesn't mention anything about working. The Gemara says what's the what's the difference? When the Yidden do the ืจืฆื•ื ื• ืฉืœ ืžืงื•ื, you don't have to work. If the Yidden don't do, you have to work. So the second ืคืจืฉื” is talking when the Yidden don't do the work. What do you mean the second one says when the Yidden don't do the will of Hashem? It starts off, \"ื•ื”ื™ื” ืื ืฉืžื•ืข ืชืฉืžืขื• ืืœ ืžืฆื•ืชื™\". You listen to me. How do you mean it says not listening? The Maharsha says the difference is the first one says, \"ื‘ื›ืœ ืžืื“ืš\", and the second one doesn't say. It says, \"ื‘ื›ืœ ืœื‘ื‘ื›ื ื•ื‘ื›ืœ ื ืคืฉื›ื\". That's all. That's called not doing the will of Hashem. Doing everything Hashem wants, not bli gevul, not the ืžืื“ืš. ื—ืกื™ื“ื•ืช ื˜ื™ื™ื˜ืฉ'es, doing the will of Hashem means not doing what Hashem told you to do. Hashem told you the pashut you do. There are certain things Hashem never said, but you know that this is what He would want, you have to do that too. That's not a chiyuv. So, \"ืื ืฉืžื•ืข ืชืฉืžืขื• ืืœ ืžืฆื•ืชื™\", you listen to Hashem. Everything Hashem told you, you do, but you're not doing the will of Hashem. That's it. Huh? Lifnim mishurat hadin. Yeah, that's what it is. That's a peshat. It says, \"ืื™ืฉื” ื›ืฉืจื” ืขื•ืฉื” ืจืฆื•ืŸ ื‘ืขืœื”\". What's a kosher woman? That does the will of her husband. It doesn't say does what her husband wants. Does more than that. Does what the will, knows that he She knows what the husband wants. Yeah. ื–ืื’ื˜ ื“ื™ ื’ืžืจื ื•ื•ื™ื™ื˜ืขืจ, ืจ' ื™ื•ืกื™ ืžืฉื•ื ืจ' ืื‘ื ืจื‘ื™ ืื•ืžืจ ืžืฉื•ื ืื‘ื ื™ื•ืกื™ ื‘ืŸ ื“ื•ืกืชืื™, ืจื‘ื™ says in the name of Abba Yosi ben Dostai a different terutz. ืœื ืงืฉื™ื. ื›ืืŸ ื‘ื™ื“ื™ ืื“ื, ื›ืืŸ ื‘ื™ื“ื™ ืฉืžื™ื. When it says you will won't be able to count, people won't be able to count. When it says there will be Not a chisaron, they're both the same. In other words, it's not talking about two different situations. The previous terutz is this is talking one time, this is talking another time. Now, we're saying the same time, they're both true. The ืื•ื™ื‘ืขืจืฉื˜ืขืจ could count them, and people can't count. Yeah, but if you say that that that they will be like the sand of the sea, so that means it's that it's not countable by by man. That's It's only countable by Hashem. By Hashem, exactly. The second terutz. The second terutz. ืืžืจ ืจื‘ ืขื™ืœืื™, ืจื‘ ืขื™ืœืื™ ื‘ืจ ืื™ื“ื™ said ืืžืจ ืฉืžื•ืืœ: ื›ื™ื•ื•ืŸ ืฉื ืชืžื ื” ืื“ื ืคืจื ืก ืขืœ ื”ืฆื™ื‘ื•ืจ, the moment the person becomes a leader, mit'Asher, he becomes rich. Why, where do we see that? ืžืขื™ืงืจื ื›ืชื™ื‘, see, first it says ืฉืื•ืœ, ืฉืื•ืœ ื”ืžืœืš counted Yidden twice. First it says ื•ื™ืคืงื“ื ื‘ื‘ื–ืง. He

Saulโ€™s counting: earthenware pieces vs sheep

counted them using what? ื‘ื–ืง, using pieces of pots, which is worthless. ื•ืœื‘ืกื•ืฃ, later, after he was already king and and he was for a while, the pasuk says ื•ื™ืคืงื“ื ื‘ื˜ืœืื™ื. They gave sheep. So what happens when you have a million people give sheep? He got a million sheep. But when a million people gave him their their pieces of of of earthenware, it's nothing. So we see, after he became a leader, he became rich. ืคืจืขื’ื˜ ื“ื™ ื’ืžืจื: ื•ื“ื™ืœืžื ื˜ืœืื™ื ื“ื™ื“ื”ื•? How do you know it means that they gave him theirs? Maybe it was his! Maybe he gave each one, it's also a possibility. He wanted to count them, he gave each one a sheep and then later he counted how much he gave. It also shows how rich he is. No, that doesn't show that he became that way. We want to show he became through this. So the Gemara says, ืื ื›ืŸ, if that would be true, ืžืื™ ืจื‘ื•ืชื ื“ืžื™ืœืชื? So what's the big chidush? The pasuk is trying to tell you, yes, a chidush, telling you that he counted them with sheep. Otherwise, it it would say he counted them, and we already know that you have to use something. So here we know to tell you that you know that he got sheep, he got something. So from there we know that he became rich, he got it. So, but even though the first time he did it with earthenware, Yeah. so it's, see, after he became king he he did it with sheep, so it looks like he got it, otherwise he would have counted them lechat'chila with sheep also. No. No, maybe he didn't have maybe maybe in that He didn't have and now he has. I mean, so, or maybe he had, he just didn't want to use it. So, what happened, exactly? Did they give them give him their sheep? Yeah. Okay, so, isn't that proof enough that they're rich, that they gave? People gave away, no, so that shows he became rich. Now, he's asking another she'eilah. He's asking if it if if his, if it was his, even if it was his, that means that before he didn't have it. What re'ayah? The fact that he didn't use it, maybe in the first he used this, now he used this. What re'ayah he didn't have? Is it the only proof that it brings, Yeah. for this concept? That he become rich? Yeah. By Kohen Gadol, it says ื’ื“ืœื”ื• ืžืฉืœ ืื—ื™ืš. Tsushtayer, you have to give him. If he doesn't have money, if he's not rich, you have to make him rich. Who has to make him rich? The Kohanim. ื’ื“ืœื”ื• ืžืฉืœ ืื—ื™ืš. King also. Tzibur has to make him. Tzibur has to make him, yeah. But the kikarot also we know for a fact that every Yid brought gave it in or did Yeah. we could learn from the other, we know that. Of what? That the that they gave the sheep and it wasn't his sheep. No, what's the re'ayah? I'm saying is why is it even a question of No, because No, the the earthenware is worthless, there's no meaning to it. But the sheep, well, how do you know you could force a person to give you a sheep, a sheep which is value? So maybe not. Maybe for that he would have to give his own. Then the pasuk wouldn't say it. Nothing gained to know. Just the pasuk is teaching you something. Does it help the people, or the king should become rich? Huh? Does it mean to say something that it forced him to become rich? Yeah, it says that. The people have to do it. Tax? Yeah, like a tax. Yeah. It says when a person is appointed as a king, the people, if he's not rich on his own right, the people have to make him rich. Gemara says ื•ื™ืืจื‘ ื‘ื ื—ืœ, that he argued in the ื ื—ืœ. This was in the case of of when he told him to kill ืขืžืœืง, etcetera. According to Shmuel, Rashi says that they took from the sheep from the royal flock and they threw it... That's a she'eilah. Yeah. Oh. No, you're right. See, I'm looking now on Rashi. I'm looking at Rashi. Yeah! Hapshat is different than I said. The pshat is The pshat is more like what he said. Say what? He has to bring He gave them! Farkert, he gave them. From his own. From his own, and that's a re'ayah he was very rich. Before he didn't have to give, he didn't right, like you said, that's the re'ayah! And the Gemara's she'eilah is, maybe they gave theirs! Punkt farkert. I'm looking not ื“ื™ื“ื™ื”, I thought it said ื•ื“ื™ืœืžื ื˜ืœืื™ื ื“ื™ื“ื™ื”, ื•ื“ื™ืœืžื ื˜ืœืื™ื ื“ื™ื“ื”ื•! Adrabah, the

Gemaraโ€™s question: who actually gave the sheep?

Gemara's she'eilah is, how do you know that he had so much sheep that he was able to give each one? Maybe each one gave a sheep. Now that can become is, but here it just shows that he was already became he became rich from before. Really rich. That's the pshat, yeah. He was rich and then he got really rich. Huh? Did he ever answer the kushya? No, what's he going to answer? The terutz over there, what would what would the pasuk be teaching us? Obviously the pasuk wants to teach us something, come on, to teach us that a person becomes rich when you take an you take a position. Okay, good, right. Good that you mentioned it. It's working out right. Because of his position, they were willing to give away their also. You got to be rich to get that position. Well, it could work that way, too. In the time of the ื‘ื™ืช ืฉื ื™? In the time of the ื‘ื™ืช ืฉื ื™, it was certainly like that. It would cost They all bought their positions. But they all died. Yeah, but they still bought. Who? Never understood that. Pay $2 million to go in there to die? Huh? They wanted to go into the ืงื“ืฉ ื”ืงื“ืฉื™ื one day at least. That would That would be one. The commissioners, the commissioners. Yeah. The job is the kavod, not the job. Yeah, yeah, all these things, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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