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CLASSIC ARGUMENTS OF THE TALMUD: HILLEL AND SHAMMAI

Classic Arguments of the Talmud: Hillel and Shammai (Lesson 6)

Part of Classic Arguments of the Talmud: Hillel and Shammai

Covers the dispute over the latest time for Krias Shema at night, the order of Hallel before the Pesach meal, and the liability of a paid versus unpaid watchman.

Audio Transcript
  1. Introduction to Shamai and Hillel Debate
  2. Mishnah Berakhot: When to Say Evening Shema
  3. Rabbi Eliezer Limits Shema to First Ashmura
  4. Rashi Explains Basis of Shema Timing Dispute
  5. Potential vs Actual Sleeping Determines Shema Time
  6. Moving to Pesachim: Halel Division Debate
  7. Mishnah Asks How Much Halel Before Meal
  8. Potential vs Actual Timing of Exodus
  9. Bava Metzia Mishnah on Hand Delivery
  10. Free vs Paid Watchmen Rules
  11. Potential Use and Liability in Hand Delivery
Welcome to the continuation of the classes concerning the explanation of the arguments between the school of 砖诪讗讬, the school of 讛诇诇, which are known as 讘讬转 砖诪讗讬 and 讘讬转 讛诇诇. And the way I explained at length before, that they argue in one idea, and that is whether whenever there is a need to make a decision and there's a possibility to judge things by their potential stage or by their actuality stage, so we 砖诪讗讬 says we go after the potential, which is in Hebrew called 讘讻讞, and 讘讬转 讛诇诇 says we go after 讘驻讜注诇, we judge everything according to its 讘驻讜注诇, actual stage. And we brought many, many examples from different, different subjects in Jewish law, in the 转诇诪讜讚, in the 诪砖谞讛, in the 讙诪专讗, in connection to 讘讘诇讬 and 讬专讜砖诇诪讬, the Babylonian 转诇诪讜讚, the Jerusalem 转诇诪讜讚. And now we will continue and find some more examples. And all this shows how all this is the basis of their way of thinking. And this is actually a 诪砖谞讛 in the beginning of the tractate of 讘专讻讜转. We mentioned 讘专讻讜转 once in the one of the classes before. 讘专讻讜转 is the beginning of the whole 砖\"住. As I said, 砖\"住 is 砖砖讛 住讚专讬诐, that's all the 诪砖谞讬讜转 from all the six orders. And 讘专讻讜转 is the first one, is the first one of 住讚专, of the order of 讝专注讬诐, of the one that deals with plants, but it is also the beginning of the whole 砖\"住, of the whole 转诇诪讜讚 and the whole 诪砖谞讬讜转. And the 诪砖谞讛 starts with the words 诪讗讬诪转讬 拽讜专讬谉 讗转 砖诪注 讘注专讘讬谉? At what moment can we read the 砖诪注 in the evening? We know that there is a commandment in the Bible, in the 转讜专讛, that we are obligated to say the verses of 砖诪注 讬砖专讗诇 twice a day: once in the morning and once in the evening. And that's actually what we do. In the morning, when we say the morning prayers, part of the morning prayers include the 砖诪注 讬砖专讗诇, the three portions of the 拽专讬讗转 砖诪注, that's what it's known, which is 砖诪注 讬砖专讗诇 讛' 讗诇拽讬谞讜 讛' 讗讞讚, that's the time when we proclaim God as being one, the only one, and the rest of the verses which deal with loving God and listening to what He says, etc., etc. And we're obligated to do this twice a day: one in the morning, one in the evening. So the 诪砖谞讛 here speaks about what when does the obligation of saying the 砖诪注 in the evening start? And the 诪砖谞讛 explains that. Then it goes on: till when? In other words, what's the amount of time that I still have to fulfill this obligation? Till when can I still do it? It starts at a certain point, which basically is from the time when the night starts, which is nightfall, or we call it 爪讗转 讛讻讜讻讘讬诐, from when the stars come out, and that's considered, according to the Jewish law, night. So it starts from that point on we already could say the 砖诪注 of the evening. But then how late does it go? How late can we say it? So the 诪砖谞讛 continues and says 注讚 住讜祝 讛讗砖诪讜专讛 讛专讗砖讜谞讛 讚讘专讬 专讘讬 讗诇讬注讝专. 专讘讬 讗诇讬注讝专, which I have to mention right away, was a student in the school of 砖诪讗讬. So automatically, whatever he says is the opinion of 讘讬转 砖诪讗讬. So even though in this 诪砖谞讛 that we're quoting now we will not have the mention of 讘讬转 砖诪讗讬 and 讘讬转 讛诇诇, but nevertheless, this is 砖诪讗讬 and 讘讬转 砖诪讗讬 and 讛诇诇, because 专讘讬 讗诇讬注讝专 was a student of 砖诪讗讬, and further on when it'll bring the opinion of the other 讞讻诪讬诐, the other sages, they were students in the school of 讛诇诇. So actually, the argument we're going to have here is going to be the argument between 讘讬转 砖诪讗讬 and 讘讬转 讛诇诇. So 专讘讬 讗诇讬注讝专 says, how late does it go? 注讚 住讜祝 讛讗砖诪讜专讛 讛专讗砖讜谞讛, till the end of the first section of the night. We divide the night into four sections, each section has the name 讗砖诪讜专讛. 讗砖诪讜专讛 means a certain a certain cycle, a certain time. So the end of the first 讗砖诪讜专讛, which means when three hours from the beginning of the night pass, that's it, you can't say the 砖诪注. You have If you missed it, it's too late, you can't say the 砖诪注, and you missed your obligation. You didn't fulfill your obligation. But it's till that time that we're able to say. 讜讞讻诪讬诐 讗讜诪专讬诐, the 讞讻诪讬诐 say 注讚 讞爪讜转. The 讞讻诪讬诐 say you have till midnight. 专讘谉 讙诪诇讬讗诇 讗讜诪专, 专讘谉 讙诪诇讬讗诇 says 注讚 砖讬注诇讛 注诪讜讚 讛砖讞专, till the 注诪讜讚 讛砖讞专 comes out. 注诪讜讚 讛砖讞专 is the time, it's about it's over an hour, maybe 72 minutes before sunrise. And that's called 注诪讜讚 讛砖讞专. 注诪讜讚 讛砖讞专, the literal translation of 注诪讜讚 讛砖讞专 is the morning star, which really there is no such thing as a morning star, but it's a way we call the time before sunrise, which is already, to a certain degree, the beginning of the day. So 专讘谉 讙诪诇讬讗诇 says you could read it all the way till 注诪讜讚 讛砖讞专, till 注诇讜转 讛砖讞专, which means till the time of the morning star, which, as I said, there are different of opinions when it is. Some say it's about 72 minutes before sunrise, some say it's up to 120 minutes up to before sunrise, but whatever whichever opinion we'll accept, the idea is that's the beginning of the day. In certain cases, we say the beginning of the day starts from sunrise, but in most cases, we say that really the beginning of the day is from that point which is called 注诇讜转 讛砖讞专 or 注诪讜讚 讛砖讞专. So 专讘谉 讙诪诇讬讗诇 says that we could read the night 砖诪注, that to fulfill the obligation of saying the 砖诪注 for the evening, it could be done anytime from the beginning of the night till the end of the night, till 注诇讜转 讛砖讞专. So it looks like we have three opinions here. The opinion of 专讘讬 讗诇讬注讝专 is you only could do it for the beginning of the night, the first 讗砖诪讜专讛, which is 3 hours. The 讞讻诪讬诐 say till midnight, and 专讘谉 讙诪诇讬讗诇 says till the morning. Now, in truth, the way the 转诇诪讜讚 later explains, the 讞讻诪讬诐, the other sages who claim till midnight, are of the same opinion as 专讘谉 讙诪诇讬讗诇. You have to keep in mind, 专讘谉 讙诪诇讬讗诇 says a whole night, the 讞讻诪讬诐 also say a whole night. When they said it's only till 讞爪讜转, till midnight, they said that the rabbis said you should do it till midnight because otherwise you might forget. If you do it wait for later, it'll happen, you might go to sleep, and you'll forget, you won't do it. But in essence, the 讞讻诪讬诐 also agree that the law is that you could say the 砖诪注 till the morning. So basically we have two opinions here: 专讘讬 讗诇讬注讝专's opinion, and again, 专讘讬 讗诇讬注讝专 is from 讘讬转 砖诪讗讬, says you could only do the beginning of the night, the first 讗砖诪讜专讛. The other sages, the 讞讻诪讬诐 and 专讘谉 讙诪诇讬讗诇, who are from the 转诇诪讬讚讬诐, from the students of 砖诪- of 讛诇诇, which means they are from the school of 讘讬转 讛诇诇, they say you could do it till the morning. So here we have an argument between 讘讬转 砖诪讗讬 and 讘讬转 讛诇诇. 讘讬转 砖诪讗讬 says you have to fulfill this 诪爪讜讛, this commandment of saying the 砖诪注 of the evening, only in the beginning of the night, and the 讘讬转 讛诇诇, quoted by the 讞讻诪讬诐 and 专讘谉 讙诪诇讬讗诇, hold that you could do it all night till the morning. What is the basis of the argument? So actually, when you look into 专砖\"讬, who is one of the main commentaries on the 转诇诪讜讚, we're all familiar with 专砖\"讬. 专砖\"讬, whose name was 专讘谞讜 砖诇诪讛 讬爪讞拽讬, which means his name was 砖诇诪讛, Rabbi 砖诇诪讛, our Rabbi 砖诇诪讛. 讬爪讞拽讬 means he's the son of 讬爪讞拽. His father's name was 讬爪讞拽, so he's called 专砖\"讬. And 专砖\"讬 is from the main commentaries on the 讞讜诪砖, on the Bible, the main commentaries on the 转诇诪讜讚. He's known by everybody, studied by everybody who just starts learning the Bible, 讞讜诪砖, or starts learning 讙诪专讗, learns 专砖\"讬. It's interesting that the word, the letters 专砖\"讬, 专讬\"砖, 砖讬\"谉, 讬讜\"讚, if you switch them around, they make up the word 讬砖专, which means straight. 专砖\"讬 is straightforward. 专砖\"讬 tells you exactly as it is. 专砖\"讬 has another abbreviation: 专讘谉 砖诇 讬砖专讗诇, the rabbi of all the Jews. He was from the first commentaries on 讞讜诪砖 and on the 转诇诪讜讚, and he's learned by everybody, and accepted everybody, and the greatness of 专砖\"讬 is unbelievable, something we can't even describe. Anyway, 专砖\"讬 says that the basis of the argument between 专讘讬 讗诇讬注讝专, who is from the students of 砖诪讗讬, and the other sages, which are the students of 讛诇诇, is where do we know that we have this commandment that you have to say the 砖诪注 in the evening? It's because in the 砖诪注 itself, in those 驻住讜拽讬诐, in those verses, it says that you should say these words: 讘砖讻讘讱 讜讘拽讜诪讱, which means when you go to sleep, when you lay down to go to sleep, when you go to sleep, 讜讘拽讜诪讱, and when you get up. And therefore, you have to say 砖诪注 in the evening, and you have to say 砖诪注 in the morning. Those are two parts of this 诪爪讜讛. The argument 专砖\"讬 says between 专讘讬 讗诇讬注讝专 and the rest is 专讘讬 讗诇讬注讝专 says when it says 讘砖讻讘讱, when you go to sleep, it means when you go to sleep. And that's the beginning of the night. Some people go to sleep a little earlier, some go a little later, but it's all within the first 讗砖诪讜专讛. We said before 讗砖诪讜专讛 is the 3 hours. At that time, that's usually when people go to sleep. The other opinion is that 讘砖讻讘讱 doesn't mean when you go to sleep. 讘砖讻讘讱 means when you're sleeping. So the time for doing this 诪爪讜讛 of reading the 砖诪注 is all the time that people are sleeping. When do people sleep? Throughout the whole night. So that's why 专讘讬 讗诇讬注讝专 says you could only say 砖诪注 in the beginning of the night, because he learns that when the 转讜专讛 says 讜讘砖讻- 讘砖讻讘讱 means when you go to sleep, and that's only the beginning, later on you're not going to sleep, you're sleeping already. And the other opinion is that it means the whole time when you're sleeping. This really is based on the same logic as we said before from 讘讻讞 and 讘驻讜注诇. Going to sleep is the potential of sleeping. That's what it is. In order to sleep, you have to go to sleep. When you go to sleep, that's what you're doing, what you're doing is you're starting off the sleep that this because you went to sleep, this includes that you will now sleep throughout the night. Sleeping through the night is the 讘驻讜注诇, that is the actuality of sleeping. Now, the 诪爪讜讛 is at the time of sleeping, but 讘讬转 砖诪讗讬 says, in this case it's 专讘讬 讗诇讬注讝专 who is from the school of 砖诪讗讬, says that we look at the potential more than we look at the actuality. So, he says when the 转讜专讛 says you should say the 砖诪注, 讜讘砖讻讘讱, when you sleep, when you're going to sleep, so he says, \"Well, here we have a choice. Should we say that the 转讜专讛 means at the time of the potential of sleeping, or do we say it means actually when there's an actuality of sleeping?\" So, 讘讬转 砖诪讗讬, 专讘讬 讗诇讬注讝专 who's the 转诇诪讬讚讬诐 of 砖诪讗讬, says that we always say that when we have to judge between the potential and the actuality, we always judge it by the potential. So here, when we have a question does it mean the potential of sleeping or the actual sleeping, so we follow the potential. So therefore, he learns that the meaning of the verse 讜讘砖讻讘讱 means going to sleep, which is the potential of sleeping. While the others who are from the school of 讛诇诇, and they say we follow the 讘驻讜注诇, the actuality, so they say that when we have to judge between the two, we judge the actuality. So when the 转讜专讛 says about sleeping and that 砖诪注 is supposed to be said at the time of sleeping, we don't look at it that it's the time when you go to sleep, which is the potential of sleeping, it means at the time when you actually are sleeping, in actuality. That's why they say that the time for 砖诪注 is throughout the whole night, because that's the time when you actually sleep. So here we have another example of 讘讬转 讛诇诇, 讘讬转 砖诪讗讬 going according to 讘讻讞, and 讘讬转 讛诇诇 going according to 讘驻讜注诇. Now, we will go to another argument between 讘讬转 砖诪讗讬, 讘讬转 讛诇诇, and show that there, too, they argue based on the differences whether we learn we go according to the 讘讻讞 or 讘驻讜注诇. And that is going to be in another tractate in 驻住讞讬诐, which is part of the section of 诪砖谞讬讜转 called 诪讜注讚, which deals with the holidays, with the 讬诪讬诐 讟讜讘讬诐, therefore we have the tractate 砖讘转 in that section, we have 专讗砖 讛砖谞讛, 住讜讻讛, all the different holidays that are included in that section, including 驻住讞讬诐 which deals with the holiday of 驻住讞. And here we have in 驻住讞讬诐 讚祝 拽讟\"讝 注诪讜讚 讘', which means the page is 116, the second side. There is an argument between 讘讬转 砖诪讗讬, 讘讬转 讛诇诇. There it talks about the 住讚专. We all know 驻住讞 night we have a 住讚专, and we say the 讛讙讚讛. The 讛讙讚讛 are all different things that the rabbis told us to say at the night of the of 驻住讞, the night of the 住讚专. Part of the 讛讙讚讛 is 讛诇诇. There is a section in 转讛诇讬诐, in Psalms, which is referred to as 讛诇诇, and that is those chapters starting from chapter 112 through chapter 118. And that is called 讛诇诇. We say 讛诇诇 different times of the year. 讛诇诇 basically is praising God for the great things He did for us. We say it on 驻住讞, we say it on 住讜讻讜转, on 砖讘讜注讜转, all the holidays, we say it on 专讗砖 讞讜讚砖, the first day of the month, we say it on 讞谞讜讻讛, different times. One of the times that we have to say 讛诇诇 is 驻住讞 night during the 住讚专, which is besides when we say 讛诇诇 on 驻住讞 during the prayers, we say it during the 住讚专. The only thing is during the 住讚专 we divide the 讛诇诇 into two parts. There's a part of 讛诇诇 that we say before the meal, and there's a part of 讛诇诇 that we say after the meal. The meal includes eating the 诪爪讛, eating the 诪专讜专, the 诪爪讛 and the bitter herbs that we eat, and then the meal itself that we eat, and then at the end of the meal, in the time of the 讘讬转 讛诪拽讚砖, when we had the holy Temple, they used to eat the 拽专讘谉 驻住讞, a certain sacrifice that they had to bring on 注专讘 驻住讞, on the day before 驻住讞. 驻住讞 is the 15th day of the Hebrew month of 谞讬住谉. The 住讚专 is the night of the 15th day of 谞讬住谉. The day before, which is the 14th day of 谞讬住谉, known as 注专讘 驻住讞, the day before 驻住讞, they had to sacrifice a 拽专讘谉 驻住讞 called the 拽专讘谉 驻住讞, and during the 住讚专 they would eat that meat. And that was the last part of type of food that they would eat during the meal of the 住讚专, and then afterwards they would say the 讘注谞讟砖讬谞讙, which is grace after the meal, and then they would continue with the 讛讙讚讛, and the beginning of that continuation was continuing the 讛诇诇. So part of 讛诇诇 we say before the meal, which means before the 拽专讘谉 驻住讞, and part of the 讛诇诇 we say afterwards. Nowadays that we don't have a 拽专讘谉 驻住讞, so we eat the 讗驻讬拽讜诪谉, that's piece of 诪爪讛 that we eat at the end of the meal, which is to remind us of the 拽专讘谉 驻住讞 that they used to eat in the time of the 讘讬转 讛诪拽讚砖. So part of 讛诇诇 we say before the meal and part of 讛诇诇 we say after the meal. How do we divide the 讛诇诇? And this is where the argument between 讘讬转 砖诪讗讬 and 讘讬转 讛诇诇 comes in. The 诪砖谞讛 says: 注讚 讛讬讻谉 讛讜讗 讗讜诪专? How far do you say, how much of 讛诇诇 do you say before the meal? 讘讬转 砖诪讗讬 讗讜诪专讬诐, 讘讬转 砖诪讗讬 say, 注讚 讗诐 讛讘谞讬诐 砖诪讞讛, till the words 讗诐 讛讘谞讬诐 砖诪讞讛. These are the words that are the beginning, the end of the first chapter of the 讛诇诇. The next chapter, which starts with the words 讘爪讗转 讬砖专讗诇 诪诪爪专讬诐 we do not say. We say that according to 讘讬转 砖诪讗讬, the second half after the meal which is after the 拽专讘谉 驻住讞. The second chapter starts with the words as I said 讘爪讗转 讬砖专讗诇 诪诪爪专讬诐, which talks about the Exodus of 诪爪专讬诐. So the first part of 讛诇诇 before the meal is just the first chapter. The second part starts 讘爪讗转 讬砖专讗诇 诪诪爪专讬诐. 讘讬转 讛诇诇 讗讜诪专讬诐, 讘讬转 讛诇诇 say, 注讚 讞诇诪讬砖 诇诪注讬谞讜 诪讬诐. They say that the first part of 讛诇诇 which we say before the meal includes the second chapter of 讛诇诇, which starts as I said with 讘爪讗转 讬砖专讗诇 诪诪爪专讬诐, when the 讬讬讚谉, when Jews went out of 诪爪专讬诐. So here we have an argument between 讘讬转 砖诪讗讬 and 讘讬转 讛诇诇 what we say in the first part of 讛诇诇 before the 拽专讘谉 驻住讞. Now, it does say in the 讬专讜砖诇诪讬 that 讘讬转 讛诇诇 says that the reason why we say 讘爪讗转 讬砖专讗诇 诪诪爪专讬诐 before is because there is no need to wait. 讘讬转 砖诪讗讬 says, you have to say it later. If you're going to say it before the meal, you're saying it at the time when the Jews didn't leave Egypt yet. Because if we look into the Bible, into the 讞讜诪砖, we see that they brought in the in Egypt at the time of the Exodus, they brought the 拽专讘谉 驻住讞 during the day, but they didn't leave Egypt till in middle of the next day, in middle of the 15th day of 谞讬住谉. That's when they left Egypt. But at night, they didn't leave Egypt yet. So 讘讬转 砖诪讗讬 says to 讘讬转 讛诇诇, why would you say 讘爪讗转 讬砖专讗诇 诪诪爪专讬诐, why would we talk about the Exodus of Egypt that the Jews left Egypt at the time before the meal and before the 拽专讘谉 驻住讞, when at that time they didn't leave yet? So 讘讬转 讛诇诇 answered 讘讬转 砖诪讗讬, so therefore what do you want? They should say it later at the time when they left? Then you'll have to wait till the next day, because even afterwards, at night, after the meal, which is after the 拽专讘谉 驻住讞, at that point they didn't leave yet either. They only left the next day. And this is the argument the way it says in 讬专讜砖诇诪讬 between 讘讬转 砖诪讗讬 and 讘讬转 讛诇诇. 讘讬转 砖诪讗讬 says we should say 讘爪讗转 讬砖专讗诇 诪诪爪专讬诐, which means talk about the Exodus of Egypt after we already ate the 拽专讘谉 驻住讞, or nowadays after we eat something instead of the 拽专讘谉 驻住讞, which is a substitute takes the place of the 拽专讘谉 驻住讞, but we only say 讘爪讗转 讬砖专讗诇 诪诪爪专讬诐 after the 拽专讘谉 驻住讞. And 讘讬转 讛诇诇 says, this is not going to help you. If you don't want to say it before, you claim we shouldn't say it before because it's too early, it's not the time when they left, so after the 拽专讘谉 驻住讞 is also too early. So you might as well wait till the next day, and that we cannot do. So therefore it doesn't matter if we say it before. The basis of this argument really is whether we look at 讘讻讞 or we look at 讘驻讜注诇. And I'll explain why. We know that the 讝讻讜转, the merit it says that the Jews had to leave Egypt, was the fact that they brought the 拽专讘谉 驻住讞. It says God wanted to take them out of Egypt, and He said, but they're empty of 诪爪讜讜转, they're naked of commandments, they're not, they don't have much merit. So He gave them it says two 诪爪讜讜转, and He says now I want you to fulfill these two commandments, and with the merit of these two commandments you will merit to leave Egypt. The two were the 诪爪讜讛 of 诪讬诇讛, circumcision, and the 诪爪讜讛 of bringing the 拽专讘谉 驻住讞. Now we know the 诪爪讜讛 of circumcision was given many, many years before. It didn't come here. It was given yet to 讗讘专讛诐 讗讘讬谞讜, to Abraham. But for many reasons while the Jews were enslaved in Egypt, they did not do this 诪爪讜讛. They couldn't, it was dangerous, whatever it is, they did not do the 诪爪讜讛. So 讛砖诐 said, God said, in order for you to leave Egypt, I want you to do the 诪爪讜讛 of 诪讬诇讛. So the Jews circumcised themselves. They also did the second 诪爪讜讛, which is the 诪爪讜讛 of 拽专讘谉 驻住讞, and in merit of these two 诪爪讜讜转 they left Egypt. So it comes out that the 诪爪讜讛 of 拽专讘谉 驻住讞 is the potential of their leaving Egypt. They left actually Egypt on the first day, on the 15th day of 谞讬住谉, which is the next morning in middle of the day. 讘注爪诐 讛讬讜诐 讛讝讛, it says in 驻住讜拽, in middle of the day they left. But the potential, the merit that they had which brought them the ability to leave Egypt, that came through eating the 拽专讘谉 驻住讞. So 讘讬转 砖诪讗讬 says like this: Don't say 讘爪讗转 讬砖专讗诇 诪诪爪专讬诐, which means don't talk about the Exodus before the meal, before you ate the 拽专讘谉 驻住讞, because at that time it's before the time they left. So why speak about 讘爪讗转 讬砖专讗诇 诪诪爪专讬诐, about their leaving Egypt? After the 拽专讘谉 驻住讞 is no problem, because even though they didn't leave yet, but since you already ate the 拽专讘谉 驻住讞, so you already have the potential of leaving. And since 讘讬转 砖诪讗讬 says we follow the potential, so that's important, so we consider that they left. 讘讬转 讛诇诇 says we don't follow the potential, we follow the 讘驻讜注诇. 讘驻讜注诇, they didn't leave till middle of the day. So 讘讬转 讛诇诇 says there is no difference whether you're going to say it before the eating of the 拽专讘谉 驻住讞 or afterwards, because in both cases you're not going to have it at the right time. So then there is no reason to wait till after the 拽专讘谉 驻住讞. So here again we see another example where 讘讬转 砖诪讗讬 follows the 讘讻讞 and 讘讬转 讛诇诇 讘驻讜注诇, and again in short, 讘讬转 砖诪讗讬 says we have to say this chapter of 讛诇诇, 讘爪讗转 讬砖专讗诇 诪诪爪专讬诐, which deals with the Jews leaving 诪爪专讬诐, wait till after the 拽专讘谉 驻住讞, and 讘讬转 讛诇诇 says you're not going to gain anything. If you want to wait for the right time, you'll have to be for the next day, but that time it makes no difference if you say it before or after, and the reasoning is because 讘讬转 砖诪讗讬 holds that the potential is what counts, and since the potential of leaving 诪爪专讬诐 started with the 拽专讘谉 驻住讞, because that was the merit that they had that gave them their ability to leave, so 讘讬转 砖诪讗讬 says before the 拽专讘谉 驻住讞, it's before the time they left, after the 拽专讘谉 驻住讞, it's already when they have the potential of leaving, so we could already say 讘爪讗转 讬砖专讗诇 诪诪爪专讬诐, we could already talk about them leaving. And 讘讬转 讛诇诇 says we look at 讘驻讜注诇, and 讘驻讜注诇, even after the 拽专讘谉 驻住讞, they didn't leave yet, and the potential doesn't count, and therefore there is no difference before and after, and therefore 讘讬转 讛诇诇 says we could even do it before. So here we have another example of where we have an argument between 讘讬转 砖诪讗讬 and 讘讬转 讛诇诇, and it depends on the idea of 讘讻讞 and 讘驻讜注诇. Then we will go to another example that will show how they argue in the 讘讻讞 and 讘驻讜注诇. Although, as I will show, according to the 讬专讜砖诇诪讬, this will not exactly fit, but according to the 讘讘诇讬 which doesn't mention what the 讬专讜砖诇诪讬 will say, we could explain it that way. And that is in the tractate 讘讘讗 诪爪讬注讗. 讘讘讗 诪爪讬注讗 is, as we said before, part of 谞讝讬拽讬谉, it's part of the 诪砖谞讬讜转 or the 砖状住, in the order of 谞讝讬拽讬谉 that deals with monetary disputes and monetary cases. So here we have a case in the 转诇诪讜讚, which is actually a 诪砖谞讛 in 讘讘讗 诪爪讬注讗 讚祝 诪状讙 注诪讜讚 讘壮. It's on the 43rd page on the second side. And this is what the 诪砖谞讛 says: 讛讞讜砖讘 诇砖诇讜讞 讬讚 讘驻拽讚讜谉. Now, I'll have to explain what that means. We're dealing here with a concept of 砖诇讬讞讜转 讬讚. That's the name of this law: 砖诇讬讞讜转 讬讚. What does that mean? This is a law that deals with a 砖讜诪专. A 砖讜诪专 is a person who's giving something, given something to watch. And the law is, if a person gives you something to watch, and then something happens to it, and it gets stolen or it gets lost or it gets broken or whatever should happen to it, there are different laws in what kind of 砖讜诪专 you are, what category of a watchman you are considered. And I'll just say some of the general rules of what is the 讙讚专, the type of a 砖讜诪专, of a watchman. There is there are four categories, but we're only going to discuss two, just the main two ones: 砖讜诪专 讞谞诐 and 砖讜诪专 砖讻专. A 砖讜诪专 讞谞诐 means somebody who watches something for you for free. You don't pay him, he gets no benefit, he just does you a favor and he watches for you. Then you have a 砖讜诪专 砖讻专: somebody who watches for pay. You pay him to watch. And there are different laws concerning each one of these. A 砖讜诪专 讞谞诐, a person who watches for free, means without pay, is not obligated if something that he watched is stolen or lost. Certainly, if something out of the ordinary happens and it gets broken or something, certainly he is not obligated to pay. But even if it got stolen or lost, he's not obligated. The only time he's obligated to pay if he is negligent, and that that's called a 驻砖讬注讛, but if he's not negligent, he doesn't have to pay. A 砖讜诪专 砖讻专, on the other hand, does have to pay even if it just got stolen or lost. He's not obligated if something out of the ordinary happened, we call that in Hebrew an 讗讜谞住, and then he is not obligated, he is 驻讟讜专, but otherwise he's 讞讬讬讘. Otherwise he has to pay. But a 砖讜诪专 讞谞诐 does not have to pay even if it just got stolen or lost because he watched it for no benefit and he did you the favor. But there's another exception to the rule. Besides the exception that if he was negligent he has to pay, there's another case where he has to pay, if he was 砖讜诇讞 讬讚. Now 砖讜诇讞 讬讚 means, the literal translation is, he stretched out his hand to take it. What does that mean? It means if he used it. If someone takes upon himself the responsibility of watching an object for someone else, he has no right to use the object, unless using it will be beneficial for the object. Like something that you have to air out, and if not it'll get spoiled, so it's worthwhile to take it out and air it out, or something that you should put on because that's going to save the object, but otherwise you're not allowed to use it. If you used the object, and that's called you were 砖讜诇讞 讬讚, the general rule is that even if you put it back in its place, and later it got stolen or lost, you have to pay. Not only if it got stolen or lost as a result of your using it. The fact that you used it, when you were not allowed to use it as a 砖讜诪专, as a watchman, automatically obligates you to pay if it got lost or stolen. That's the 讛诇讻讛 called, the law called 砖诇讬讞讜转 讬讚. The 诪砖谞讛 says, 讛讞讜砖讘 诇砖诇讜讞 讬讚 讘驻拽讚讜谉, if someone thought, had in mind to be a 砖讜诇讞 讬讚, which means he had in mind to use the object that he was watching, he didn't use it yet, he had in mind. And here itself there are differences of opinion in the commentaries, does it mean just in his mind, or he had to say it. But whichever way, he didn't actually do anything to it, he didn't use it. He was planning to use it. Or according to the other opinion, what 讘讬转 砖诪讗讬 meant, that he said to somebody, \"I'm going to use it\", but he never did. 讘讬转 砖诪讗讬 讗讜诪专讬诐 讞讬讬讘. 讘讬转 砖诪讗讬 says you're still 讞讬讬讘, he's still obligated, if something happens to it, he has to pay. 讜讘讬转 讛诇诇 讗讜诪专讬诐, 讘讬转 讛诇诇 say 讗讬谞讜 讞讬讬讘 注讚 砖讬砖诇讞 讘讜 讬讚. No, you're not obligated till you actually use it, till you stretch out your hand. And the 转诇诪讜讚 here goes into different verses of the 讞讜诪砖 that each one says shows his opinion. But the bottom line is, if we start thinking about it, we see here the idea that we said before. 讘讬转 砖诪讗讬 follows the 讘讻讞 and 讘讬转 讛诇诇 follows the 讘驻讜注诇. 讘讬转 砖诪讗讬 holds that potential is what counts. So he says, when you thought to use it, or you said you'll use it, which is the potential of actually using it, because when you actually use it, you have to first think about it, you have to first say it, so planning to use it is the potential of its actual use. So 讘讬转 砖诪讗讬 says that when the 转讜专讛 says that if you do 砖诇讬讞讜转 讬讚, if you use it, you're obligated, it doesn't mean only use it, it means even if you have the potential of using it. And therefore 讘讬转 砖诪讗讬 says if you planned to use it, already you fall into the status, this category of 砖诇讬讞讜转 讬讚 and you are 讞讬讬讘, you're obligated to pay. 讜讘讬转 讛诇诇 讗讜诪专讬诐, 讗讬谞讜 讞讬讬讘 注讚 砖讬砖诇讞 讘讜 讬讚, 讘讬转 讛诇诇 says you're not 讞讬讬讘 until you actually use it. So here we see again that 讘讬转 砖诪讗讬 follows the potential, and 讘讬转 讛诇诇 follows the, not potential, but the actuality. Why did I say before that it's not really 100% that this really should fit? Because in the 讬专讜砖诇诪讬 it says that if the object was standing in the street, and a person had a mind to take it, the 砖讜诪专, the person who was watching it, it happened to be in the street, rightfully, he didn't do anything wrong about keeping it in the street, and while it was in the public domain, he planned to use it, even 讘讬转 砖诪讗讬 agrees that he is not obligated. Now if we're going to say that the reason 讘讬转 砖诪讗讬 says that when you think to use it, automatically you are 讞讬讬讘 because that's already the potential, what difference does it make whether it's in the street or not? So obviously, according to the 讬专讜砖诇诪讬, there must be some other reason why they argue. But superficially, without going deeper into the 讬专讜砖诇诪讬 and finding other things, this seems to follow along what we're saying till now, that 讘讬转 砖诪讗讬 follows the 讘讻讞 and 讘讬转 讛诇诇 follows the 讘驻讜注诇, and therefore 讘讬转 砖诪讗讬 says thinking or saying is is enough to make you 讞讬讬讘, because that's potential 砖诇讬讞讜转 讬讚, potential using it, and 讘讬转 讛诇诇 says that it's not enough, and only when you actually use it, that's when you are 讞讬讬讘.
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