CLASSIC ARGUMENTS OF THE TALMUD: HILLEL AND SHAMMAI
Classic Arguments of the Talmud: Hillel and Shammai (Lesson 7)
Part of Classic Arguments of the Talmud: Hillel and Shammai
Closes the series with the laws of tumah and the Parah Adumah, the categories of chukim, eidos and mishpatim, and a final 'zero and one' analogy summarizing the entire potential-versus-actual framework.
Audio Transcript
- Series Finale: Wrapping Up 讘讬转 砖诪讗讬 vs 讘讬转 讛诇诇
- Purity Laws: 讟讜诪讗讛, 讟讛专讛 and the Red Heifer
- Commandment Categories: 讞讜拽讬诐, 注讚讜转, 诪砖驻讟讬诐 Explained
- Mi Chata Water: Thought vs Action Dispute
- City of Mixed Populations Argument on Creation
- Potential vs Actual: The Core 砖诇诪讜转 Debate
- Action Over Feeling: Why 讛诇讻讛 Follows 讘讬转 讛诇诇
- Zero and One analogy for potential vs actual
Welcome to the continuation and the conclusion of the series where we're discussing the reasoning behind the arguments between 讘讬转 砖诪讗讬 讜讘讬转 讛诇诇. We went through many, many different subjects where they have an argument, and we brought out the point that they argue whether we go after 讘讻讞 and after 讘驻讜注诇. And this just shows the depth of the sages, of their understanding and of their wisdom, and how everything fits together like a puzzle, exactly like a puzzle. And with this, we're going to with this class, this is the seventh and we're going to conclude this series. Hopefully, God willing, 讗诐 讬专爪讛 讛砖诐, we're going to have other series maybe along the same line to show how the different arguments of different sages in the 转诇诪讜讚 also follow a certain thread of thought that they have within many of their arguments. And we will see the depth of all the sages, and we will see the depth of the 转诇诪讜讚 in general and the depth of the 转讜专讛. One more argument between 讘讬转 砖诪讗讬 讜讘讬转 讛诇诇 I would like to bring in, which is an argument between them in tractate 驻专讛. 驻专讛 is deals with the 驻专讛 讗讚讜诪讛. 驻专讛 讗讚讜诪讛 means the red cow actually, known in English as the red heifer. And that refers to the special laws that came along with this red cow. And let me explain it. As I explained I think quite a few lessons ago, we have the concept of 讟讜诪讗讛 讜讟讛专讛, purity and impurity, spiritual purity and impurity. And there are ways how to get rid of the impurity and how to become pure again, clean again, spiritually clean if you became 讟诪讗 through one of the ways that the Bible, the 转讜专讛 describes 讟讜诪讗讛. One of the main types of 讟讜诪讗讛, of impurity a person could get, is if a person comes in contact with a dead body. To get rid of that 讟讜诪讗讛 is much harder than to get rid of the any other type of impurity, of 讟讜诪讗讛. Most of the types of 讟讜诪讗讛, to get rid of it and to become clean, spiritually clean, pure, pure again, you have to go to the 诪拽讜讛, to the ritual bath, which also has all kinds of laws how to make it and when it's considered a 讻砖专 诪拽讜讛, and then you become 讟讛讜专 again, pure again. The exception is 讟讜诪讗转 诪转, that means if you became 讟诪讗 by touching or coming in contact in the death of a dead body. There, in addition to going to the 诪拽讜讛, there was something else had to be done. And that is being sprinkled with the ashes mixed with water, the ashes of the 驻专讛 讗讚讜诪讛. And 驻专讛 讗讚讜诪讛 is one of the 诪爪讜转, or actually the one 诪爪讜讛 which is called a 讞讜拽讛. We know that in the 转讜专讛 we have different categories of commandments. We have 讞讜拽讬诐, 注讚讜转 讜诪砖驻讟讬诐. Let me explain just in short. 诪砖驻讟讬诐 refers to those categ- those 诪爪讜转 which are in a category that makes sense. Actually, if the 转讜专讛 wouldn't command us, we would understand on our own to keep those commandments, like don't steal, don't kill, or things like that. They are 诪爪讜转, God commanded us to keep them, but they are called 诪砖驻讟讬诐, they are logical 诪爪讜转. Then you have 诪爪讜转 called 注讚讜转. 注讚讜转 are those 诪爪讜转 that have a reason, but if the 转讜专讛 would not command us to do it, we would not do it. For instance, keeping 驻住讞, eating 诪爪讛 on 驻住讞, not eating 讞诪抓, leavened bread on 驻住讞. It makes sense, there's a reason for it, because the Jews were in Egypt and they left Egypt, and at that time they they couldn't make bread and they ate 诪爪讛, etc., etc. So to remember that, we eat 诪爪讛, we don't eat 讞诪抓. Makes sense. But if the 转讜专讛 wouldn't command us to do it, we wouldn't keep 驻住讞. Same thing with 砖讘转. 砖讘转 is logical. God created the world in s- six days, the seventh day He rested. He wants us to remember that, which instills within us the proper faith and belief in God that God created the world. So He gave us the 诪爪讜讛 of 砖讘转. It makes sense. But if God would not command us in the 转讜专讛 to keep 砖讘转, we wouldn't keep it. Then there are 诪爪讜转 that make no sense. They just make no sense, there is no reason for it that we have, understand. There is no logical reason for it, and those are called 讞讜拽讬诐. Between, and they're not too many like that, but there are quite a few. The one, the most and the the the one that makes the least sense is the 诪爪讜讛 of 驻专讛 讗讚讜诪讛. Now, what is that? Like I said, in order to become 讟讛讜专 from 讟讜诪讗转 诪转, from becoming 讟诪讗 by in contact of a dead body, you have to sprinkle the ashes of a 驻专讛 讗讚讜诪讛, which means that they had to take a red cow, and there are many details in this law Oh, but a cow which was red, they had to slaughter it, 砖讞讟 it, burn it together with other things, and the ashes would be kept in a special place, and if somebody became 讟诪讗 through contact with a dead body, he would have to take some of the ashes, and mix it with water, and sprinkle it on the person on the third and the seventh day. And then the person could go to the ritual bath, to the 诪拽讜讛, and he will become 讟讛讜专. This is one of the days that the reasons why nowadays we don't have the laws of 讟讜诪讗讛 impurity, because we have no 驻专讛 讗讚讜诪讛, so there is no way we can get rid of it. But this is the law of 驻专讛 讗讚讜诪讛. And this is a 讞讜拽讛. This makes no logical sense, but we don't care. If that's what God wants, that's what we do. There is a law that if you drink from the water that was prepared to mix with the ashes, though that water cannot be used. You got to use different water. It's 驻住讜诇. 驻住讜诇 means it's invalid, you can't use it anymore. Here we have a 诪砖谞讛, 讛讞讜砖讘 注诇 诪讬 讞讟讗转 诇砖转讜转. If someone thought, had in mind on the water to drink, had in mind to drink though that water of 诪讬 讞讟讗转, 专讘讬 讗诇讬注讝专 讗讜诪专 驻住讜诇. 专讘讬 讗诇讬注讝专 says it's not valid anymore. If you remember from a previous class, 专讘讬 讗诇讬注讝专 was from the 转诇诪讬讚讬诐, from the students of 砖诪讗讬. He was from 讘讬转 砖诪讗讬. He was from the school of 砖诪讗讬. And he says that this already makes it 驻住讜诇. 专讘讬 讬讛讜砖注 讗讜诪专, 讻砖讬讛讟讛. 专讘讬 讬讛讜砖注 says no, you got to do something. You got to actually take it to drink. Even though you didn't actually drink it, but if you bend it already, you got ready, you did something, you did an act which is the beginning of drinking, then already it becomes 驻住讜诇, you can't use it. But if you just thought, or according to some opinion you said you're going to do it, it's not enough, and it doesn't count, and the water is still 讻砖专, so to speak. So here we have a 诪讞, an argument between a student of 砖诪讗讬 and a student of 讛诇诇. The student of 砖诪讗讬 says thinking about the 诪讬 讞讟讗转, about this water for the 驻专讛 讗讚讜诪讛, to drink it is already enough to make it 驻住讜诇, even though actually he didn't drink it. You actually didn't do anything, you just thought about it. But the other one says that you have to do something in order to make it 驻住讜诇, which is you have to at least pick it up and turn it and get ready to use it, that's already the beginning of the actual drinking. This is all based on what we said before, that 讘讬转 砖诪讗讬 follows 讘讻讞, and therefore the 诪讞砖讘讛, the thought, is already the potential of what you're going to do, obviously, when you do something, it's because you thought first to do it, and that's when you do it. So the thought is the potential of the act, so when you thought to drink from it, you thought to pick it up and drink from it, so then already it's considered as if you drank for it, because that's what counts, the potential counts. And the other one who's from the 转诇诪讬讚讬诐 of 讘讬转 讛诇诇 says no, you got to do some actual act in order to be considered that you drank from it and it's 驻住讜诇, and that's why it's only when you bend it. Now, again this is another one which is not a 100%, because according to some opinions there are some details here which indicate that there are other factors that play a role here, not to get into it at this moment. But generally speaking, it we do see here the way they go with their direction, that the one that's from 讘讬转 砖诪讗讬 says that thinking, which is the potential, is enough to be considered it happened, because potential counts, 讘讻讞 counts, and according to the other one who is from 讛诇诇 holds that you have to have 讘驻讜注诇. So this is a another example that we have. Then we have another example which is more general, and that's in Talmud, tractate 注讬专讜讘讬谉. There we have an argument between 讘讬转 砖诪讗讬 and 讘讬转 讛诇诇, on 讚祝 讬状讙 注诪讜讚 讘壮, which is the 13th page, the second side. And here it says clearly, 转谞讜 专讘谞谉, the we were taught, says even more than just an argument, 砖转讬 砖谞讬诐 讜诪讞爪讛 谞讞诇拽讜 讘讬转 砖诪讗讬 讜讘讬转 讛诇诇. Two and a half years they were arguing over this. 讛诇诇讜 讗讜诪专讬诐: 谞讜讞 诇讜 诇讗讚诐 砖诇讗 谞讘专讗, Some say, better is for a person that wasn't created, and this is the opinion of 讘讬转 砖诪讗讬, 诪砖谞讘专讗, better than he was created. 讜讛诇诇讜 讗讜诪专讬诐: 谞讜讞 诇讜 诇讗讚诐 砖谞讘专讗 讬讜转专 诪砖诇讗 谞讘专讗. It's better, easier for a person that he was created than he would not have been created. This is a very strange argument. Who created us? God. What do you mean it's better that we wouldn't be created? If it would be better we wouldn't be created, then God wouldn't create us. God wouldn't do something that's no good. Obviously, this is what's supposed to happen. So how can there be an opinion, how could 讘讬转 砖诪讗讬 say 谞讜讞 诇讜 诇讗讚诐 砖诇讗 谞讘专讗 讬讜转专 诪砖谞讘专讗. It would be better for the person if he wouldn't be created. Well obviously, this is not so simple. For sure this is the right thing. If God made it, this is what's supposed to happen. The question is, is it 谞讜讞 诇讜 诇讗讚诐? The wording are here is 谞讜讞 诇讜 诇讗讚诐. What's better for the person? It's for sure that for the fulfillment of God's will, it definitely is the right better that he's created. The proof is, proof is in the pudding, as we say, God created us, so obviously it's better for us to be created. The question is, is this something that's better for the person too, or is just because that's what God wants and it's, so to speak, better for Him, and therefore it's the right thing, but as far as the person is concerned, that's not necessarily better? When we speak here about a person being created, what did mean what did what does it mean created? We know that every Jew has a 谞砖诪讛, a holy soul, and the soul came down into the body. And the discussion is, is it better for the person that the soul came down to the body, he was made into a human being down here in this world, or would it been better that he would stay up there, the 谞砖诪讛 to stay up there? So 讘讬转 砖诪讗讬 says, for the person's sake, there is nothing that he gains down here. So then why is he here? Because that's God's will, and God has His way of doing things and that's what He wanted, but it's not because it's better for the person. Better for the person would he could have been just up there just as good. And 讘讬转 讛诇诇 says no, 谞讜讞 诇讜 诇讗讚诐, it's better for the person! For the person himself it's better that he comes down here. Now when a person's 谞砖诪讛, a 讗讬讚's 谞砖诪讛 comes down to this world, obviously he comes down for a purpose. There is a mission that the person was given, the 谞砖诪讛 was given, that's why he's brought down into this world. And the mission is obviously to fulfill God's will, and that is by doing the commandments, keeping the 诪爪讜转, and by doing that, you're fulfilling God's will, that's your mission. That's for sure. But before the 谞砖诪讛 comes down to this world, the 谞砖诪讛 has the potential of doing it. The 谞砖诪讛 has the power and the potential of doing it. If the 谞砖诪讛 wouldn't have the potential of doing it, he wouldn't be able to do it. So the fact that we are able to be down here in this world with all the hardships of fulfilling God's commandments, it's not so simple. It's hard, sometimes it's very hard, but nevertheless, this is our job and this is our mission, this is what we have to do, we have the potential to do it. When we're down here, we don't only have the potential, we have the 讘驻讜注诇, we actually do it. Now the question is, is it important for the benefit of the person that he should actually do it? So 讘讬转 砖诪讗讬 says we follow 讘讻讞. By us the 讻讞 is more important. So therefore, whether he actually does it or not doesn't make a difference. So then why does he actually have to do? Because God wants him to do it and that's God's will, so that's it. But as far as the person is concerned, because he has the potential, even if he wouldn't come down here and actually do it, he's just as good off. And 讘讬转 讛诇诇 says no, 讘讻讞 is not enough. And therefore, even for the 谞砖诪讛 himself, for the person himself, for his soul, the fact that he is able to do it potentially, no, that's not good enough. It has to come down down here 讘驻讜注诇, when you actually are doing it, and then you reach your 砖诇诪讜转, your your completion, that's when you reach your your what you're the level that you're supposed to reach. So here we see that this is not just an argument between 讘讬转 砖诪讗讬 and 讘讬转 讛诇诇 in individual cases of different subjects. This is an argument in the general approach how we look at what the mission of a Jew is. According to 讘讬转 砖诪讗讬, 讘讻讞, the potential is enough, and coming down into this world is not for the benefit of the person, it's not important for him because he has the potential before and that's just as good. And you know what? Maybe even better. 讘讬转 砖诪讗讬 says 讘讻讞 is more important than 讘驻讜注诇, the potential is more important, so it's even better up there. And coming down here is because that's God's will, but not 谞讜讞 诇讜 诇讗讚诐, but it's not for the person's sake. And 讘讬转 讛诇诇 says even for the person's sake, the potential is not enough. We have to have the 讘驻讜注诇. And 讘驻讜注诇 is only down here. So it's even 谞讜讞 诇讜 诇讗讚诐, it's better for the person that 讛砖诐 sent the 谞砖诪讛 down here into this world and do the 诪爪讜转 and overcome all the hardships down here in this world, that's for the benefit of the person. So here we see how their approach is in not only in specific things, but even in the general approach. So here we come to the conclusion and here we see that the way 讘讬转 砖诪讗讬 and 讘讬转 讛诇诇 look at things, whether individual things or general things, is based on 讘讻讞 or 讘驻讜注诇, potential or actuality, and And we brought many, many, I don't even remember what the amount is, but many, many different places in different subjects, in different areas, in different parts of the 讙诪专讗 and of the 转诇诪讜讚, of different 诪讞诇讜拽讜转, and whether we look at it 讘讻讞 or 讘驻讜注诇. And like I said before, this gives us an understanding of the depth of the 转诇诪讜讚 and of the sages of the 转诇诪讜讚. And I have to tell you what we spoke about is not a drop in the bucket. It's not even a drop in the ocean. The 转诇诪讜讚, the 转讜专讛 is so deep and so wide, it's basically unlimited, infinite. And when you have a certain explanation which shows that everything has a meaning, and that all fits together like a puzzle in one thing, is just one out of billions of things that are there. And the more we learn, the more we learn, the deeper we could go, and the deeper we could go, and we could see more of the 转诇诪讜讚. But I want to say another point here. We said the argument of 讘讬转 砖诪讗讬 and 讘讬转 讛诇诇 is whether 讘讻讞 or 讘驻讜注诇. 讘讬转 砖诪讗讬 says 讘讻讞, and 讘讬转 讛诇诇 says 讘驻讜注诇. And I mentioned quite a few times before, the 讛诇讻讛 is like 讘讬转 讛诇诇, which means the decision of how to actually act is like 讘讬转 讛诇诇. They're both true. Like I said, they both had the 讻诇诇讬诐, they took the rules given by God, like I said in the first lesson, and they used their understanding how to apply it, which is what God wants. But then there is a rule: when it comes to the actual doing, what do we do? And according to those rules, the 讛诇讻讛 is like 讘讬转 讛诇诇. So when it comes to this, when we have a question of 讘讻讞 or 讘驻讜注诇, the 讛诇讻讛 is with 讘驻讜注诇. And this is something that we all have to take to heart. There are many Jews who have the potential of being very observant, the potential of doing 诪爪讜讜转, and they have great feeling in their heart towards Judaism, and towards God, and towards all these holy special things, but they don't bring it out into actuality. It's still in their heart. That's not enough. We have the 讛诇讻讛 is it has to come down 讘驻讜注诇. We have to do it in actuality. And if you didn't do it in actuality, it doesn't count. It's major, it's very special if a person has a feeling in his heart towards God, very good. But he missed the point. The point is that you got to do it in 驻讜注诇 诪诪砖, which means in actuality. They say this joke that why do so many Jews have heart attacks? Because all the Judaism is in their heart. Some Jews say, I'm a Jew at heart, that means in potential I am a Jew, but in actuality, you have to do actual 诪爪讜讜转. The Jewish religion is a religion of 诪注砖讛, of action, not only of thinking and feeling. And as a matter of fact, the action is more important than the thinking. Others think that to serve a God, you got to serve with your mind, with your heart, which we agree with that. You got to do your heart, with your heart, with the mind. But the main thing is to do the action. When you do the will of God, then you connect yourself to God. If you have feelings, but it's not doing what God said, then you're missing the connection. I just want to use this, I'll use an example. It's only a parable, a 诪砖诇. There was once a person who met a new friend. He went someplace and he met a friend, and became friendly, and when he left, he said, \"You know, let's keep in touch.\" So the friend gives him his telephone number, and he says, \"Please be in contact with me, call me from time to time, so we'll talk.\" Fine, he writes down the number. A few weeks later, he says, \"Well, time for me to call my friend. A new friend, let's be in touch.\" He looks at the number, and he says, \"I'm going to dial this number.\" And then he says, \"I think, I think, for such a nice guy, there should have been a better number.\" And he says, \"I think that this should be 1 2 3 4 5, not 3 6 7, whatever.\" And he's going to dial that number. You know what's going to happen? Never get to him. You'll never get to your friend. You have to use the number he gave you. As much as you might think that the other number is better, but if that's not the number he gave you, that's not his number, you'll never reach him. Same thing here: God gave us the number. He gave us the 诪爪讜讜转, He gave us the commandments. And He said, \"I want you to do it 讘驻讜注诇. I want you actually to do it, because we 驻住拽谉 like 讘讬转 讛诇诇.\" And if you don't, we have a fine number. It looks like it's a very good number, the number of your heart, all this, but it's not His number, and we'll not reach Him. So no one could say, \"I have my own way.\" When you talk to some people, they say, \"You know, I have my own way of communicating with God. I have, don't tell me what to do, don't tell me to put on 转驻讬诇讬谉, don't tell me to do other 诪爪讜讜转. I have my ways.\" The problem is that it's your ways. We don't need your ways, we need the ways of God. Especially that God is infinite, and we are finite, and it's impossible for a finite thing to connect to infinite, it's impossible. The only way it's possible if it comes from His side. He is infinite and He could do anything, He could raise us. On our own, as much as we'll try to raise ourselves to God, but because it comes from within us and we're limited, so whatever it is will never reach the unlimited. It's like someone will try to pick himself up by pulling himself by his ears, I'll go like that. You're picking yourself up from yourself. So you're doing something to get out of yourself, to get out of your limits, to go to to the unlimited by doing something from yourself, which is limited, you'll never get out. You got to do something that the unlimited says. He, who is unlimited, could pull you up, says, \"Do this and you'll be connected to Me.\" So from here we see, based on everything that we said and all understanding that says in 驻专拽讬 讗讘讜转, which is the father of ethics of our fathers, which everyone knows about, says, \"讛诪注砖讛 讛讜讗 讛注讬拽专.\" The main thing is the action. And we can't say, \"Well, we have enough with the potential and the feeling and all these great things,\" which are very great if they come together with action. All these thoughts and all these potential feelings and all these things are like a zero. If the zero comes after the one, ooh, you know what it adds? From one, it becomes 10. Another zero comes 100 and 1,000, but the one has to be there. If you put the zero before the one, you can tack 100 zeros, it's all zero, it's nothing. If you have the feelings, potential, it's all it's nothing. But if you have the 诪爪讜讛, then very good, you got to have the feelings and we got to do all this, but we got to remember the 讘驻讜注诇 is which counts. And this is the lesson that we take, we learn all this and we have all these different explanations, the bottom line is the bottom line is 讛诪注砖讛 讛讜讗 讛注讬拽专, the 讘驻讜注诇 诪诪砖, the action is what counts. And when we do the action, God sees that we're doing 讘驻讜注诇 of what He wants, then we could turn around to say, \"You know, we're asking you too, do 讘驻讜注诇, do in actuality what we're asking,\" and that God will give us everything that we need, not just in potential, but in actuality, and the best and the greatest thing that He will give us is that He will bring in actuality 诪砖讬讞, who will come very, very soon, speedily in our days.