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PESACHIM (IYUN)

Pesachim 6a โ€” Iyun

Who Owns the Chometz? Abaye and Rava Debate

Part of Pesachim (Iyun)

A short Gemara sugya on bringing a dugma and the status of a bar chiyuva, the Avnei Nezer's machloket on the chametz question, and Abaye and Rava's dispute over what it means to possess the ื—ืคืฅ.

Audio Transcript
Bringing a Dugma and Bar Chiyuva Status

I'm bringing a ื“ื•ื’ืžื, a ื“ื•ื’ืžื. He says the difference is by other things, even though it's not Pesach today yet, but I'm a bar chiyuva. I'm a... A ืงื˜ืŸ is not in the ื’ื“ืจ, he's not a ืžื—ื•ื™ื™ื‘ ื‘ื›ืœืœ. And I tried to use that same logic, you remember, then for for for the Rebbe says that by ืงืจื‘ืŸ ืคืกื— ื“ืจืš ืจื—ื•ืงื” is a ืคื˜ื•ืจ and it's not a... He's far away from... He's far from the ื‘ื™ืช ื”ืžืงื“ืฉ. So I said, it's not in the ื’ื“ืจ ื‘ื›ืœืœ. Not the pshat the ื—ื™ื•ื‘ ื–ืžืŸ didn't come, there is no ื—ื™ื•ื‘. I want to use the same logic here too. ื™ืžืฆื, which is the ืžืฆื™ืื•ืช, and obviously it means ื™ืžืฆื on Pesach, which is the ืžืฆื™ืื•ืช, ืžืฆื™ืื•ืช is not here. You could say other things are in the ืžืฆื™ืื•ืช, so memeila in a case where there is no ืžืฆื™ืื•ืช of what the ืื™ืกื•ืจ is. Why isn't the fact that you're not there with ื—ืžืฅ? Yeah, the ื—ืžืฅ, there... what is \"there\"? The whole teitch of \"there\" is it has to be there in the house on Pesach. Yeah. Okay, I I thought I would get away without explaining it in more detail. There is a ืฉืืœื” ื‘ื›ืœืœ, is the ื–ืžืŸ of the of ื—ืžืฅ of Pesach a ื—ืœืง of the ื—ืคืฆื ื”ืžืฆื•ื”? This is a a

Avnei Nezerโ€™s Machloket on Chametz Status

Avnei Nezer. Okay, look at The Avnei Nezer explains a ืžื—ืœื•ืงืช in the ืจืืฉื•ื ื™ื whether ื—ืžืฅ is called ื“ื‘ืจ ืฉื™ืฉ ืœื• ืžืชื™ืจื™ืŸ. We know that ื—ืžืฅ is ื‘ื˜ืœ, is not ื‘ื˜ืœ ื‘ืฉืฉื™ื, ื‘ืžืฉื”ื• etcetera. Why? Why is ื—ืžืฅ different than other ืื™ืกื•ืจื™ื? So some ืจืืฉื•ื ื™ื say, the Rambam actually says, because ื“ื‘ืจ ืฉื™ืฉ ืœื• ืžืชื™ืจื™ืŸ. Any aveirah, any issur, any davar, what's a thing that's asur which later on at a one point will become mutar, while it's asur it doesn't become batel. That's a whatever the reason is. Chametz is the same. On Pesach it's asur, after Pesach it's mutar, mide'oraita. Derabbanan say ื—ืžืฅ ืฉืขื‘ืจ ืขืœื™ื• ื”ืคืกื— is also asur, but mide'oraita chametz is mutar. So it's a ื“ื‘ืจ ืฉื™ืฉ ืœื• ืžืชื™ืจื™ืŸ, it's something that will become mutar. Other Rishonim say, no, that's not the reason. Other reasons: ื›ืจืช, ื‘ืœ ื™ืจืื”, ื‘ืœ ื™ืžืฆื, since it's more chamur. Why don't they accept it to be ื“ื‘ืจ ืฉื™ืฉ ืœื• ืžืชื™ืจื™ืŸ? So they say the pshat is very simple: it's going to become mutar and then asur again, next year Pesach. It's not like all other ื“ื‘ืจ ืฉื™ืฉ ืœื• ืžืชื™ืจื™ืŸ. Today it's asur, like the best example is ื‘ื™ืฆื” ืฉื ื•ืœื“ื” ื‘ื™ื•ื ื˜ื•ื‘. An egg was born on Yom Tov, it's not batel. It's asur to eat, and if it mixes with a thousand eggs, it's not batel. Why? Because wait till tomorrow, it'll be mutar, and it'll never become asur again. Every ื“ื‘ืจ ืฉื™ืฉ ืœื• ืžืชื™ืจื™ืŸ will never become asur again. Here it's a issur that next year comes. The Avnei Nezer gives a different reason what the machloket is whether ื“ื‘ืจ ืฉื™ืฉ ืœื• ืžืชื™ืจื™ืŸ. He says like this: What is the issur of chametz? Now, you can support this also: is the ืื™ืกื•ืจ ื—ืžืฅ ื‘ืคืกื— or is the ืื™ืกื•ืจ ื—ืžืฅ ื“ืคืกื—? Is the ืงื•ื“ื ื›ืœ the issur, what is ืืกื•ืจ? The ื—ืคืฅ of ื—ืžืฅ. When is the ื—ืคืฅ of ื—ืžืฅ ืืกื•ืจ? On Pesach. Or Pesach is part of the the combination of ื—ืžืฅ and Pesach together make an ืื™ืกื•ืจ? Just like by ื‘ืฉืจ ื‘ื—ืœื‘. No one is going to say, you see, ื‘ืฉืจ is ืืกื•ืจ. Oh, you know when it's ืืกื•ืจ? If it got mixed with milk. Stupid. Not like that. ื‘ืฉืจ ื‘ื—ืœื‘ is ืืกื•ืจ. It's one ื—ืคืฅ. So he

Sevara: Chametz with Pesach Like Meat and Milk

says, there is a ืกื‘ืจื to say that not ื—ืžืฅ is ืืกื•ืจ on ืคืกื—, ื—ืžืฅ together with Pesach, like ื‘ืฉืจ ื‘ื—ืœื‘, is ืืกื•ืจ. And he says that's the difference. If the ืื™ืกื•ืจ is ื—ืžืฅ, so ื“ื‘ืจ ืฉื™ืฉ ืœื• ืžืชื™ืจื™ืŸ. Today ื—ืžืฅ is ืืกื•ืจ, after ืคืกื— ื—ืžืฅ is ืžื•ืชืจ. If the ืื™ืกื•ืจ is ื—ืžืฅ ื‘ืคืกื—, ื—ืžืฅ ื‘ืคืกื— will never become ืžื•ืชืจ. What will happen is it'll it'll change, no, it'll change to a new ื—ืคืฅ. It won't become it'll be a different ื—ืคืฅ. When Pesach leaves, it's like you separate, you took away part of it. The only ืื™ืกื•ืจ is if they combine. If they're not combined, so it's a different ื—ืคืฅ. So it's not ื“ื‘ืจ ืฉื™ืฉ ืœื• ืžืชื™ืจื™ืŸ, it'll never become ืžื•ืชืจ. So I want to say that it's possible that ืœื’ื‘ื™ ืื›ื™ืœื”, ืœื’ื‘ื™ eating, the ื–ืžืŸ of Pesach is the ื–ืžืŸ, the time of ืคืกื—, ื•ืœื’ื‘ื™ the ื™ืžืฆื, ืคืกื— is a ื—ืœืง of the chefetz, which means when the chefetz is ื™ืžืฆื by you, part of being ื™ืžืฆื or being found, just like ื‘ื’ืฉืžื™ื•ืช it has to be found, it has to be found at a certain time. That's part of the metziut of what the issur is. ืœืš is a separate entity. ืœืš is yours. So here, it's very easy to say that it's yours, Pesach, on Pesach if it's yours, it's asur. Pesach is the zeman. ื™ืžืฆื is the metziut, the zeman is also part of the metziut. It has to be found on Pesach. So if that's the peshat, at least it's possible to say, I'm not saying you have to say it, before I I will say it over, there's no hold like that, but if you if you go with this line, it comes out that the chefetz of chametz before Pesach is not the same chefetz. So you don't have it. So it's not the peshat you have the chefetz and everything is there, just it'll happen later. You don't have it. So

Abaye vs Rava on Possessing the ื—ืคืฅ

Abaye comes Says, if you don't have it, you don't have it. But it's only if you can make matzah. Rava will say no, that even by matzah, it's only the matzah, the Pesach is not, so you have the matzah now like you said. But Abaye will hold, but it's all if you hold like that. According to Tosafot we need a different be'ur in an Abaye, but I'm saying according to Rashi you could learn like that. Now thirty days is just derabbanan. Derabbanan. What from the Avnei Nezer? But you have an issur chametz in the ื‘ื™ืช ื”ืžืงื“ืฉ the whole year. Yeah. Meaning the chametz is is epes on the chefetz. It's a chidush. See, are we going to put ourselves on the line to help unleash

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