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EIN YAAKOV

Nedarim 10a

Why a Nazir Needs a Sin Offering for Abstaining

Part of Ein Yaakov · 21:12

A short sugya questioning why early piety sometimes required a korban -- the nazir's choice to forgo wine treated almost as a sin -- and a related halacha-versus-angelic-authority debate.

Audio Transcript
Early Pious Wanting a Sin Offering

Starting here, no? Here. תניא, תניא רבי יהודה אומר: חסידים הראשונים היו מתאווים להביא קרבן חטאת. רבי יהודה said the earlier חסידים wanted to bring a קרבן חטאת. לפי שאין הקב\"ה מביא תקלה על ידיהם, since the אייבערשטער doesn't allow them to do an עבירה, so there are a few פשטים here, but the simple פשט is, since it didn't allow them to do an עבירה, they never did an עבירה. So they never got the זכות to bring a קרבן חטאת. מה היו עושים? So what did they do? So like this: עומדים ומתנדבים נזירות למקום, so they made themselves a נזיר, כדי שיתחייבו קרבן חטאת למקום, because when you're a נזיר, at the end of your נזירות you bring a קרבן חטאת. One of the קרבנות you bring is a חטאת. So that's the only way they were able to bring a קרבן חטאת. רבי שמעון אומר, רבי שמעון says no, לא נדרו בנזיר, they did not make themselves a נזיר. Because they did not, what was the purpose, why did they want to bring a קרבן חטאת? הלא רוצה להביא עולה, מתנדב ומביא. So like this, if you want to bring an עולה, no problem, they brought an עולה. שלמים, if you want to bring a שלמים, מתנדב ומביא, so you give it a נדבה שלמים, you bring a שלמים. תודה וארבעה מיני לחמה, if you want to bring a קרבן תודה and the four bread, 40 types of breads, 40 breads that come along, מתנדב ומביא, you can bring. אבל בנזירות לא התנדבו, they didn't make נזירות, כדי שלא יקראו חוטאים. They didn't want to be called sinners, because you bring a קרבן חטאת after you're a נזיר because there's a sin. The גמרא will say why. שנאמר it says, וכיפר עליו מאשר חטא על הנפש. It says that the נזיר has to bring a קרבן חטאת, the אייבערשטער should forgive for his חטא. So why would they want to do that? So פונקט פארקערט, so there's a מחלוקת here. One says they're looking to bring a קרבן חטאת, and they had no no way to do it because they've never sinned, so they brought they became a נזיר. And this is a פונקט פארקערט, they were happy they didn't bring a קרבן חטאת. תניא it says, רבי אלעזר הקפר ברבי אומר, רבי אלעזר הקפר רבי says, וכיפר עליו מאשר חטא על הנפש. It says you're going to have a כפרה for sinning on the נפש. וכי באיזה נפש חטא זה? This guy, this צדיק, this who חסידים הראשונים or anybody who made himself a נזיר, what what kind of חטא did he do? Why does he bring a קרבן חטאת?

Nazir's Sin of Abstaining from Wine

אלא שציער עצמו מן היין. The fact that he did not allow himself to drink wine, that itself is called a חטא. Like it says in the ירושלמי, that you're going to you did, like a that a, says that the אייבערשטער is going to give you're going you're going to have to give a דין וחשבון to the אייבערשטער for anything in עולם הזה that you could have had הנאה from and you didn't. Which על פי חסידות is understood. If it's עבודת הבירורים, if you're able to be מברר something, why aren't you מברר it? So if a person makes himself a נזיר and he can't make drink wine and make a ברכה and be מברר the wine, that's an עבירה, בעצם it's an עבירה. That's why it says בכלל it's a סתירה. One place it says נדרים סייג לפרישות. Make a נדר not to eat this, not to eat that, very good. It's a סייג, it's a fence not to to stay away from עבירות. On the other hand, it says here that if you מצער from your wine, you're a חוטא. So חסידות says, depends for who. A person who's a high בעל מדרגה should not become a נזיר, should not stay away, because he's able to be מברר all the things. If you're a low בעל מדרגה, and you better stay away, because instead of being מברר it, instead of you elevating that, that'll pull you down, because if you don't eat it לשם שמים, you don't do it properly, it's no good. Here they're all on high מדרגה. Here we're talking about the גמרא, yeah, a person is high מדרגה. How did they make הבדלה on it? Huh? סתם on orange juice, something like that, yeah. והרי דברים קל וחומר, it's a קל וחומר now. ומה דא זה שלא ציער עצמו אלא מן היין, what if this נזיר, the only thing that he was מצער himself that he didn't do is drinking wine, נקרא חוטא, he's already called a sinner, המצער עצמו מכל דבר, if a person מצער himself from everything, על אחת כמה וכמה, certainly he's a חוטא. מכאן, from here the חכמים learn, כל היושב בתענית נקרא חוטא. If someone fasts he's called a חוטא, and this על פי חסידות for the same reason, because you don't eat, you're not מברר. איי it's an עבודה to fast? It's a bigger עבודה to eat. It's easier to fast לשמו, לשם שמים, than to eat לשם שמים. So if you eat לשם שמים, it's better. Huh? דאך א העכערע מדרגה. אויב ס'איז אכילה, יא. If you eat and you eat the proper way, it's a higher מדרגה, and it's a שווערערע עבודה. When you fast to מוחל your עבירות, at the same time it's an עבירה to fast. Okay. It's a different type of an עבירה. It's a different type of an עבירה. That's what they say on יום טוב, it says חציו לה' וחציו לכם. Half a day you you serve the אייבערשטער, דאווען, you learn, and half of the day you have to eat. So eating is a חציו לכם because it says לכם, and the other one says לה'. So they say, I don't know which בעלזער רבי, I don't know if רבי שלום בעלזער or other בעלזער, or רבי יששכר דוב, I don't remember, they say that he was דאווענינג long in שול. After he was דאווענינג and he went home to to the meal, On the way home, he turns around to his גבאי, and he says: \"We already fulfilled the חצי לכם. The דאווענען, that's what we enjoyed. Now we're going to work on the חצי להשם, to eat properly, that's an עבודה להשם. To דאווען properly is not so hard.\" ביי איינעם איז עבודה די תענית, ביי איינעם איז עבודה די אכילה. די אכילה, יא. יא. אכילה, יא. And there were צדיקים that their עבודה was אכילה. Yeah. והדין, והדין קרבן נזיר טמא כתיב. But the שאלה is the פסוק where it says אשר חטא is not talking by a regular נזיר. It's talking by a נזיר that the middle of the time of the נזירות, he became טמא. So then he has to bring a קרבן and start his נזירות over again. But now we're saying that every נזיר is a חטא. So how come the פסוק only says it by נזיר טמא? What kind of קרבן did he have to bring? Also חטאת. Oh. So the answer: משום דשנה בחטא, because the guy who became טמא in the middle has a double חטא. עצם of being a נזיר is a חטא, so he's a bigger חוטא. That's why over there it says the word חטא. זאגט די גמרא ווייטער on the next page: תניא it says in a ברייתא, לעולם אל תהי רגיל בנדרים. Do not be רגיל at making נדרים. שסופך למעול בשבועות, because the end will be you might not keep the נדרים, and not only you might not keep the נדרים, what will happen is you might not even keep a שבועה. A שבועה is worse than a נדר. And not to keep a שבועה is much worse and that'll happen. Another thing it says: ואל תהי רגיל אצל עם הארץ. What's the difference between a שבועה and a נדר? One is איסור חפצא, one is איסור גברא. The גמרא says, מה בין נדר לשבועה? In the beginning of נדרים. ואל תהי רגיל אצל עם הארץ. Which is which? Which is which? שבועה is on the... נדר is on the חפצא. חפצא. ואל תהי רגיל אצל עם הארץ. And don't go too often to an עם הארץ, שסופך להאכילך טבלים. עם הארץ is not careful really taking off מעשר, וממילא he'll feed you, איי, he'll tell you that he took off, but the דין is we don't trust an עם הארץ. That's why we have to take off דמאי. So don't stay, don't go to him, because the end will be you'll be careful, but you know, being too often there, you come a mall, you could be careful. אז מען דרייט זיך דארטן צו פיל, if you're there too much, eventually it'll happen, you'll eat טבל. ואל תהי רגיל אצל כהן עם הארץ. And don't be by a כהן עם הארץ, שסופך להאכילך תרומה. Or תרומה טמאה. See, there's two גירסאות. Is he talking to a ישראל or to a כהן? So two פשטים. One is, talking even to a ישראל: don't be by a כהן because a כהן gets תרומה. And he's going to give it to you. איי, he's going to tell you it's not תרומה, but he's going to, you might, he'll give you it. Same thing a כהן, a כהן to go to a כהן עם הארץ shouldn't, because a כהן could eat תרומה. He'll give you תרומה טמאה, because he's not careful with טומאה וטהרה, he'll give you תרומה טמאה. ואל תרבה שיחה עם האשה, and don't speak too often to a woman, שסופך לבא לידי ניאוף. The end will be, you'll come to זנות. If you talk, from talking you'll come, you get too friendly, and so באמת it's not only for ניאוף, because it says even באשתו אמרו, even your own wife. So what do you come to there? Ah? If you come there? שנאה. To a fight, I don't know. That's what a story with the What is it? חידושי הרי\"ם with the קאצקער comes in, the apples, נו? They were walking in the street and they were and they were walking and they saw a stand with a lady selling apples, and he wanted to buy himself apples, and he said her how much it costs, so she said: \"Five kopecks.\" So the חידושי הרי\"ם started saying: \"It's too expensive. What's wrong? I'll give you three kopecks.\" And he started haggling with her. So the קאצקער turns around to him: \"איטשע מאיר, און אל תרבה שיחה עם האשה איז נישט ווערט צוויי קאפיקעס?\" He's talking to her back and forth and Yeah, but it says if you talk too much to a woman, שסופך לבא לידי ניאוף. איי, it's why even your own wife? So there's an עם הארץ who once טייטשט: it states, אל תרבה שיחה עם האשה, באשתו אמרו קל וחומר באשת חבירו. So a guy could not know the דייטש. He טייטשט like this: אל תרבה שיחה עם האשה, באשתו אמרו, קל, by his wife it's נישט געפערלאך, וחומר באשת חבירו, by an אשת חבירו, that's worse. אחרים אומרים, and אחרים says: כל הצופה בנשים, סופו בא לידי עבירה. Whoever looks at women, the end will come to an עבירה. כל המסתכל בעקבה של אשה, someone looks, now the simple פשט of עקבה, the גמרא will say that's not what it means, the simple mean means this, heel. הויין לו בנים שאינם מהוגנים. Your children that will come won't be good children. אמר רב יוסף, he said: באשתו נדה. We're talking about באשתו נדה. Even אשתו נדה you're not allowed to look, so if you look at עקבה. רב שמעון בן לקיש, עקב דקתני, when it says עקבה, when it says the heel, מקום הטומאה, שמוכוון כנגד העקב. We don't mean the עקבה, we mean that place. But why do we call it עקבה? It's בלשון נקיה. And why is it called עקבה? Because that's כנגד, that's when you bend your feet it's כנגד העקב, we call it עקבה. זאגט די גמרא ווייטער: תניא, שטייט אין א ברייתא, it says in פסוק: בעבור תהיה יראתו על פניכם. So the פסוק goes like this: דארט בעבור תהיה יראתו על פניכם לבלתי תחטאו. So you should have the יראה of the אייבערשטער on your face, And then you will not sin. So he טייטשט like this: בעבור תהיה יראתו על פניכם, you should have the יראה of the אייבערשטער on your face, זה בושה, that you should בכלל, you should be, have the מידה of בושה. And ממילא לבלתי תחטאו, you're not going to sin. מלמד, it teaches us, שהבושה מביאה לידי יראת חטא. בושה brings it to being afraid of doing an עבירה. And it doesn't only mean יראה of doing an עבירה. The רבי טייטשט יראת חטא, the word חטא has another meaning. חטא means missing. שטייט והיה אני ושלמה בני חטאים, or it says קולע אל השערה ולא יחטא. You get the target, and you don't miss. So יראת חטא is not being afraid of the עבירה, being afraid that if you do an עבירה, you'll be missing out in your connection to the אייבערשטער. It's a higher מדרגה. סתם אזוי you could have יראת עונש. יראת חטא means deeper. So if you have בושה, it'll bring you to יראת חטא. וכן אמרו: סימן סימן יפה לאדם שהוא ביישן. It's a good סימן for a person if he's a person who's shy, who's מתבייש. It's the same thing? בושה and יראת חטא, I mean, how do you... If you have יראת חטא, it brings to בושה, or בושה... No, בושה is a natural thing a person has. It says three סימנים a איד has: it's ביישנים, רחמנים, and גומלי חסדים. So it's a מידה that a איד has, a ביישן. Just to mention, גמרא says there are three three סימנים of a איד. In תניא, in פרק ב', the אלטער רבי says, when he talks about a איד, so he says a איד, all the מדות רעות of a איד come from this נפש הבהמית, and אפילו מדות טובות שבה also come from the נפש הבהמית. מה שאין כן a גוי, so he says, מדות טובות שבטבע כל ישראל, so he says רחמנים וגומלי חסדים. So the רבי asks, why doesn't he say ביישנים? It goes on that גמרא. Where does he get these two? גמרא. גמרא says ביישנים also. So the רבי has an interesting פשט: the גמרא doesn't say it's בטבע. The גמרא says ג' סימנים באומה זו. The סימן of ביישנות is not בטבע. פארקערט, the גמרא says ישראל עזים שבאומות. The אידן are באמת the most חוצפה'דיקע. בטבע, this אלא מאי? It says במתן תורה, that's when they got בושה, so it's not בטבע. So when the אלטער רבי says that there is a מדות בטבע כל ישראל, he doesn't mention ביישנים. But לפועל, from מתן תורה on, it went into us. אחרים אומרים, some say, others say, and according to אחרים, it says it's it's רבי מאיר: כל המתבייש, לא במהרה הוא חוטא. If anybody has embarrassment, will not sin fast. וכל שאין לו בושת פנים, somebody doesn't have this embarrassment, בידוע שלא עמדו אבותיו על הר סיני. You know his his parents didn't stand on הר סיני. And that makes sense. All fits to what I just said. Because where did they get the מידה of בושה? From הר סיני. The מידה of רחמנים they got from אברהם אבינו, the מידה from יעקב, the מידה of גומלי חסדים they got from אברהם, and the מידה of ביישנים they got from הר סיני, from מתן תורה. And if you don't have the בושה, then you obviously didn't come from you didn't stand by מתן תורה. Well, everybody stood by הר סיני. Wasn't too close. Stood stood far. Yeah. Maybe that's why they're not colored, you know? There was a guy in ישיבה, once he was a a גזע, a צפת'ישער guy, a תימנ'ער. He was dark-skinned. So he says, \"You know why we're dark? Because by מתן תורה, it says there was a ענן and a big fire. Those that stood closest got burned. Who stood the closest? We stood the How, did the תימנ'ים, I'm sure, we stood the closest, so we all got...\" אמר רבי יוחנן בן דהבאי, רבי יוחנן בן דהבאי said: ד' דברים שחו לי מלאכי השרת. Four things the מלאכים told me. Wow. חיגרין מפני מה הויין? מפני מה הויין? What makes a person, the people or some people, are חיגרין, the הינקעדיקע, they're limping limping? מפני שהופכין את שולחנם. Now this is לשון נקיה. They alter? The literal translation, they turn around the table. Oh. What it means is, when they have intimacy, there are different פשטים exactly what it means, but it's not the natural way, the the the different way. So what happens, רש''י says, so because they did something wrong with their thighs, with their feet, that's why they the punishment is... Now the שאלה is if this is going There's some מחלוקת although is it going on the children or going on them? Some say the children that will be born... The reason they became that way. The reason why the children are like that is because this happened. And some say no, it's on them. אלמין מפני מה הויין? Why are some people שטום, dumb, can't talk? מפני שמנשקין על אותו מקום, because they kiss that מקום. And that you do with your mouth, so ממילא they can't talk. חרשין מפני מה הויין? Why are some people can't hear? מפני שמספרים בשעת תשמיש, because they talk at the time of intimacy. And סומין מפני מה הויין? Why are they blind? מפני שמסתכלין באותו מקום, because they look there where you shouldn't. פרעגט די גמרא: ורמינהו. On this part that it said you shouldn't talk בשעת תשמיש, and that's a חסרון, so the גמרא is going to ask: ורמינהו. It says like this: שאלו את אימא שלום They asked אימא שלום, מפני מה בנייך יפיפין ביותר, why are your children so beautiful? אמרה להם, she said like this: אינו מספר עמי, because my husband doesn't talk to me, לא בתחילת הלילה ולא בסוף הלילה אלא בחצות הלילה. Talking means, it means having intimacy and talking. They don't do it in the beginning of the night, not at the end of the night, אלא בחצות הלילה. וכשמספר, when he does talk, and it means talking together with having intimacy, מגלה טפח ומכסה טפח. In other words, he טאקע uncovers, but there are certain parts that he covers. ודומה לו כמי שכפאו שד, and he does it, he feels as if he's forced to do it by a שד. חסידים used to, כ'האב געהערט a לשון, to say laugh, some people say, certain תאוות, you know, it's כאילו כפאו שד. אבער ווייסטעך, מען קען זאגן דעם שד, שד'לה שד'לה, זיי מיר כופר. Anyways, כמי שכפאו שד. ואמרתי לו, and I said to him, מאי טעם? Why טאקע is only בחצות הלילה, not before not after? ואמר לי, he said, כדי שלא אתן עיני באשה אחרת, I shouldn't give my eyes and look at somebody else, because in the middle of the night people are still up, other people, so you might see other people. In the beginning at the, the end of the night again people get up already, middle of the night now everyone is sleeping, so there's nobody else, I can't get to see anybody, ממילא I have only one thing in mind, only my wife, and that's it. ונמצא, but if I will think about somebody else, if I do it another time, בנים באים לידי ממזרות. Children will be ממזרים. Not ממזרים, but it's, it's like if you think about, it says if somebody has somebody another woman in mind בשעת תשמיש, it's as if you have תשמיש with that woman and you have children, it's like a children from a different wife, כביכול, ברוחניות. So anyway, but אוודאי, what do we see here, that he was מספר, he did speak to her, just wasn't in the beginning of the night, wasn't at the end of the night, but he did speak to her. So why did we say before speaking to her is no good? So the גמרא says, לא קשיא, הא במילי דתשמיש הא במילי אחריני. מילי דתשמיש is okay, is allowed. Why is that allowed? Because it says you should be מרצה her, you should appease her, you should talk to her, you should get her into, but סתם to talk about other things, that you shouldn't be talking בשעת תשמיש. אמר רבי יוחנן, רבי יוחנן says, זו, all this that we said before, is דברי יוחנן בן דהבאי. Before he said you shouldn't even talk, shouldn't even talk before. It even said you shouldn't even talk at all. No, here he says you should. This is the opinion of רבי יוחנן בן דהבאי, אבל אמרו חכמים, who is this guy? A תנא. But the חכמים said, אין הלכה כיוחנן בן דהבאי. It's not הלכה like him, אלא כל מה שאדם רוצה לעשות באשתו עושה. Whatever you want to do with your wife you can do. משל לבשר הבא מבית הטבח, a meat that you bring from the butcher shop, רצה לאוכלו במלח, אוכלו, you want it so salty, so eat it salted. צלי, you want to eat it roasted, אוכלו roasted. מבושל, cooked, אוכלו cooked. שלוק, if you want to eat it not rare, but strong cooked, you could eat it. וכן דג הבא מבית הציד, a fish that that's caught, so you can do what you want. Now the שאלה the הלכה this goes That's part add also a fish. What is it we wouldn't have known without the Maybe you don't like meat. You don't like raw meat, you like fish. No, he said, but it's self-understood, but you should say whatever you want to do with your food you could do. Why I know, this is meat is more גראב, בכללות of course, and fish is איידעלער. I don't know what it is. So he says you're allowed to. Now בכלל it says some places there's גאנצע שאלות there, but if it's מוציא זרע לבטלה then whatever דאס איז, it has to It's not so פשוט what the הלכה is. אמר אמימר, אמימר said, מאן מלאכי השרת? Isn't there a שולחן ערוך that tells us what the הלכה is? Yeah, it says so. מחלוקת הפוסקים. Right, we still have a שולחן ערוך that tells us A מחלוקת, there's a מחלוקת there in different הלכות, yeah. How can it not be מוציא זרע לבטלה? How can it not be מוציא זרע לבטלה? It's not the natural ways. No, if they're not מוציא זרע. If it's not מוציא זרע, that's, that's what I mean, you can't be מוציא זרע. But there are שיטות that even with that, with מוציא זרע. דאס הייסט ביאה שלא כדרכה, so most פוסקים say not. The זוהר it says עפי״ז גאר, even when it's done like this, מהפכין את השולחן. It's not לבטלה. It has nothing to do with זרע לבטלה in that case. No, it depends what you mean, no? שלא כדרכה then it's לבטלה, unless if it's מותר then it's not called לבטלה, even though it can't bring a child. What does the זוהר say? It says terrible qualities of things that happen to אמר אמימר, אמימר said, מאן מלאכי השרת? רבנן. When it says these things מלאכים told me, it doesn't mean מלאכים, it means the חכמים. דאי תימא מלאכי השרת ממש, if it would be מלאכים, אמאי אמר רבי יוחנן אין הלכה כרבי כיוחנן בן דהבאי? How could רבי יוחנן say הלכה is not like him? והאיכא אינהו בקיאי בצורת הולד טפי. מלאכים know what going on inside, and if they said it, how could you

Halacha vs Angelic Authority Debate

say the הלכה is not like them? They're saying if you're if you're gonna do this and this, your child is gonna be like this. You could rely on them, they know. See, if someone else says, you could say, \"Well, he thinks so, not sure.\" But the מלאכים said so, they know. They're like ultrasound, they could see exactly what happens inside. They're like פסקענינג הלכה also. It's not a הלכה! It's not, it's not a הלכה. It just tells you as a fact, if you this this is gonna happen. They could tell the facts. So if they're if they're חכמים, you could argue. But if it's חכמים, ומאי קרו להו מלאכי השרת? Why call them מלאכים? דמצייני כמלאכי השרת, because they are מצויין, they are special, they're great. Like מלאכים. Sometimes you say on a great צדיק ממש, ער איז א מלאך אלוקים. It says by, it says like תורה, it says you should only learn אם אם ה- the the רבי is דומה למלאך ה' צבאות, you're מקבל תורה מפיו, if not, don't. So we say sometimes we compare a צדיק to a מלאך even though he's higher than a מלאך. So that's what he says here. He called them מלאכים because they were so great. Okay, I guess we'll stop here. We'll get start getting ready to דאווען. יא. נסיעה טובה. מלאכים.

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