I'm not recording. It's not recording. Not recording. Okay. How you doing? I feel like I'm a Jewish Okay. I don't know what that is, but no idea. It's very nice. Very nice. So we're going to pick up here דף י\"א עמוד א'. Yeah. Unless you have any more questions from last night's shiur. No, I'm good. Everybody's comfortable with that? Yeah. Okay, so I'll give you a choice, being that you're the only one here tonight. Sure. You could either learn the Tosafot, Yeah, דיבור המתחיל חזקה. Still wanted to finish the other Tosafot, but anyway. Yeah. Do that? No. This one, חזקה. Yeah. Or we could go vayter. Oh, in the Gemara? Well, This Tosafot connects with what we did yesterday. Yeah, I like that one. And it gets, you know, makes us think really hard, yeah. Okay. What were you more prepared to go on today? I was prepared to go to the Gemara vayter, because I was expecting there'd be more people here, and I think the olam might have had enough already of all this. Oh. So, what do you think? We never get enough. We never get enough, so Let's keep teaching. So, just if it's just you, we're just going to keep pounding away at the same Yeah, go ahead. thing. חזקה אין אדם טורח בסעודה ומפסידה. טורח, yeah. So,

Tosafot here, דיבור המתחיל חזקה אין אדם טורח בסעודה ומפסידה. Yeah. Tosafot here is shteln on the Gemara. What did the Gemara say? The Gemara said we have a sevara being that כתובה is only דרבנן, being that כתובה is only דרבנן, הם הימנוהו והם הימנוהו. And that, in conjunction with the sevara of חזקה אין אדם טורח בסעודה ומפסידה, which seems like from the לשון of the ראשונים that this עיקר נאמנות was based on this חזקה. The husband is believed to להפסיד the woman's כתובה based on a טענה of פתח פתוח מצאתי. Isn't the logic there to say that the rabbis, they they said it like this, so therefore they can say it like that? Is that is that what he means by that? Ah, that is a good question. Oh. That's a good question. If you said that, what would that לשון אין or So so let me let me tell you the set-up of the Gemara. Once you're asking this question, we're going to put Tosafot on hold for a minute. I was not really going to go into this, but being that you brought it up. If we walk ourselves through the steps of the Gemara, the Gemara starts off with a מימרא from רב נחמן אמר שמואל משום רבן שמעון בן אלעזר, and he said that our חכמים established, commanded כתובה, and being that so, they gave him an נאמנות, the טענה of פתח פתוח מצאתי. And

Rashi also explains the Gemara, and he uses this expression like we mentioned yesterday, that there's a hem amru vehem amru. Being that it was established by the chachamim, they were the one who enacted this takanah of a ketubah, so they also said we'll believe the ta'anah of the husband. So it would seem like from the Gemara that לכאורה the ne'emanut was coming from the fact that our chachamim believed him because they have the right to establish this takanah the way they want to establish it. And they don't need a That's how it was set up. They don't even need a chazakah, yeah. Why does the Gemara bring in the chazakah? So, that seemingly is because of a question. The Gemara asks the Gemara asks, well, one second, how do we how do we explain how this takanah helps every woman? Here we can have a woman who Chazal were מתקן a ketubah for, right? and her husband comes and says פתח פתוח מצאתי, so that takanah doesn't seem to extend to this בתולה here. Right, right. And that the Gemara says, well, we can counter that with the with the chazakah of אין אדם טורח בסעודה ומפסידה. Right? So לכאורה, from the Gemara itself, one לכאורה could say that the עיקר נאמנות is based on the hem amru vehem amru, which is meaning the fact that chachamim established the ketubah, they also gave him an ne'emanut. And what we need this chazakah for, that's just to explain why the takanah of ketubah is something that would help for every woman. But is that also one of the hem amru's? Is what one of the hem amru's? The chazakah. It sounds like this It could be it's could be it's, uh, yeah, it seems like It might be a weak might not be such a strong chazakah. Okay. Not sure. I saw some different סברות about that, but even even without the chazakah, it seems like there's really an ne'emanut here. You can ask what about the, that maybe the bride's family prepared it, is not to leave this, you know, therefore it would be believed. The bride's family Maybe the bride's family, bride's family made the feast, made the סעודה. Okay. Therefore, therefore it's a weak chazakah. Yeah, okay. Somebody mentioned that yesterday. I did. Okay, it's good. There you go. You have some Rishonim to back you up, then. So, I saw brought down that the Chatam Sofer says that lichorah that would be the simple understanding of our Gemara. However, the ראשונים seem to understand that the עיקר נאמנות is coming from this chazakah. And and Rashi already alludes to it here on דף ד׳ עמוד ב׳, if we take a look להפסידה כתובתה? Yeah. על פי על פי עצמו? טעמא לקמן מפרש, חזקה אין אדם טורח בסעודה ומפסידה. So here, Rashi is explaining the מימרא of of רב יהודה אמר שמואל that says that one who says פתח פתוח מצאתי, that he's נאמן להפסידה. And Rashi says the טעמא לקמן, and Rashi says the reason of אין אדם טורח בסעודה ומפסידה. What is that, אין אדם? Person does not invest does not invest toil, right. That's expense and time. Okay. Okay, so let's ask two questions. Let's try and understand this chazakah for a moment. So, it seems those are the two צדדים. You draw up the points, what's the נאמנות? So telling you lichorah the lichorah the פשט of this lichorah lichorah the פשט of this is that the Gemara, it seems like the עיקר נאמנות is coming from the חכמים, and they they established the כתובה, so they also said that there's a נאמנות. Yeah, okay? However, what we see from Rashi, and it seems like the other ראשונים understand as well, that the נאמנות is really coming from the chazakah of אין אדם טורח בסעודה ומפסידה. Yeah. So, and now what we are going to discuss now is really what Tosafot brings up here, דיבור המתחיל חזקה. So, let's understand this chazakah for a moment. A man and a woman get married. They do קידושין. They're ארוס. A year later, the husband works very hard and he prepares for this magnificent wedding, and he does the נישואין, and lo and behold he wakes up the next morning and he says, פתח פתוח מצאתי. Oy gevalt. Oy gevalt. So, where does this סברא come in here? Meaning like this: Do we assume that the husband is coming with a valid claim, or do we say, well, maybe he just fabricated this because he doesn't really like her, and it's an easy excuse for him to get rid of her? If he knows what he's doing maybe he he only knows afterwards. Yeah, so Rashi explains that if this husband had an issue with this woman, and he didn't like her, right, then he would have given her a get before he proceeded with this magnificent wedding and נישואין. And paid the ketubah, no? Well, the ketubah, it's a safek. It could be that the חיוב כתובה only starts from the נישואין. Really? Yeah, that's a whole nother that's a whole nother can of worms, we're not going to get into that right now. It's a machloket, yeah. Yeah, that's kind of relevant, but then again We don't have we don't have time for it. Right. Otherwise we'll get confused. Otherwise we'll get confused. All these facets. Otherwise we're going to get confused. Right. We try to make it clear. That's what we try to do, right? Right. Right. Okay, yes, so then if he didn't like her before, so what's the problem? Then how could he before he should've given her a get. Yeah, but the fact that he followed through, and he did the נישואין, he threw this magnificent party, give a look He thought, he thought everything was fine. So he comes with the claim that she's not a בתולה. So lichorah indeed, she's not a בתולה. Now, one second here. Is is it is all this money and טרחה going to go to waste now because of his claim? So If it will go to waste because of this claim, then that adds a lot of weight to his claim. Must be that he's telling the truth. Because why would he want to throw all that hard work in to the garbage? Well, she would be asur, so obviously it would go to waste. Ah, very good. So that's the האמנם? The טענה, if his claim were to be true, then she would be asur. So because of his טענה, she would be asur. And since she would be asur, based on his claim the marriage would fall apart. So it must be that he's telling the emet. Why would he why would he bother with the whole טירחא if he didn't like her? If he didn't like her, he could have had an easy easy get. Right. But Tosafot says over here that we have only two very limited cases as to when the woman would be asur if he claims פתח פתוח מצאתי. Very limited cases. Okay. So this brings us back to דף ט עמוד א. When does a man have a נאמנות? בשווי נפשיה חתיכה דאיסורא. It's only if with his claim he's making one safek. But if he makes two sfeikot, then she's mutar. So the Gemara established we have two heichi timtzi. One was Say it again. two examples. Yeah. One example was the wife of a How do you type heichi timtzi? היכי, how, תמצי, could find, how it comes out. Yeah, how how it comes out, yeah. Oh, you found it? So, one example could be The wife of a A kohen. Kohen, yeah, example number one. And number two? Yeah, the other one? The three other examples are for after what? The the the case where the the woman would be asur based on his claim of פתח פתוח. Ah, that she would be asur, yeah. The wife of a kohen if it's אונס or רצון. All right, that's the safek, there's a ספק, right? We're talking about straight We need an example of a woman that by the time of the נישואין, when he realizes that she's a בתולה, sorry, when he realizes that she's a בעולה, then it it creates only one ספק, not not a double ספק, one ספק that she's אסור and and he will have to He will have שויה אנפשיה חתיכה דאיסורא. The

Gemara gave us two examples of one ספק. One was אשת כהן, because even ones is אסור. So there's only one ספק, whether it happened before the marriage or after, or during the קידושין. Before or after, that was the ספק. The other case, excuse me, was what? So ones and ratzon is not a ספק by an אשת כהן, because by an אשת כהן it's אסור whatever happened, even if she's an ones. So there's one other kind of woman. What was the other one? What was the other one? What was the other one? Something about three, remember that one? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. The other one, yeah, so she was remember, but what did it say? Why did it why did it Because it was before three or after three? I mean, she goes back, so Yeah, so we knocked out the ספק of before the קידושין and after the קידושין because the קידושין she had prior to her third birthday. And therefore, he rec- realizes that she's not a בתולה, it couldn't have been from beforehand because everything would heal. It heals, right. So, being that she's not a בתולה, there's only one ספק, maybe ones, maybe ratzon. After three. We have a ספק here that maybe she became ones or ratzon after three. But we don't take into account that it happened before the marriage because she's so young that it would have been visible. That's the other ספק that makes her אסור. That would be the one ספק that makes her אסור, maybe ones, maybe ratzon. But but no. Why? If it if it's if it's ones, it doesn't make her it doesn't make her אסור. Yeah, but being that there's a ספק, we have to be machmir. We got to be stringent, stringent. It's only one ספק. That's the first thing I said before. I don't know why, you didn't say it loud enough. I didn't think you But you slugged me off. I said ones and ratzon was the first thing. Yeah, but that was You said it by the wrong case, you said it by אשת כהן. Oh no, I meant it as a Oh, you meant it by both, oh I'm sorry. I have no Oh! Oh, all right, I'm sorry. All right, yeah, which I did. You are correct, okay. I did not understand what you meant. Okay, I apologize. So, see how you can do it? I don't think And I'm holding strong yet. Hey, you're holding strong, I I didn't realize what you meant. Now run with the Shulchan Aruch part, but anyway. Okay. So, back in business. So, so you want the money here obviously. I assume that is this man forfeiting his ketubah that he just paid and spent money on by claiming פתח פתוח? You told me it is, because now he's He can't be married to his wife anymore. If he can't be married to his wife anymore, we based on his claim everything goes in the garbage. Yeah, but All right, that would be very nice, good. But that's only by there's two. There's two. But what about everybody else? Does everybody else have a chazakah? You don't have a חזקה דגופא. If the am ha'aretz, Ploni comes to beit din and he's not a kohen and he got married to his wife at an older age, right, right, 23 years old when they got married, right, and he sees that she's not a besulah, is she's sup- supposed to have סימני בתולים, right, but she should have סימני בתולים, right, and he comes with פתח פתוח, she will not be asur. Safek sfeika. Safek sfeika. So now he comes to beit din with פתח פתוח and he's trying to maybe dock her ketubah, maybe he's trying to do, Make her lose. Make her lose. Lose, that doesn't mean... That that she's not entitled, hardly entitled for the ketubah, because she's not a besulah, she's not the wife that he thought, right? Things to reconsider. So he comes to beit din with that intention possibly, cuz he feels she'll be asurah. So

what does he have to lose? Then he comes to beit din, פתח פתוח, and this way if he ever dies or divorces her, safek sfeika, so he got her for free now. Exactly. One second, so what's What then is the deterrent that the beit din if he's not Hold up a minute, help me understand that question. What is the deterrent? There is a deterrent that we mentioned that a person will not throw all the money in the garbage, and it's lose from the garbage by claiming פתח פתוח. You told me the reason why it's in the garbage is because he has to divorce his wife now with this claim. So we're countering now that that's not true. Only by two women it's true. But everyone else, That's a real part of me. everyone else does not have to divorce their wife. So So now the question is what's the basis to believe the husband when he claims פתח פתוח? And possibly, we're going to tell him, you know what, you stay, you're allowed to stay married to your wife because of safek sfeika. You stay married, and oh, what about the ketubah? Rav Nachman seems to be saying that he is ne'eman for the ketubah. Hold one second, that is only because of the חזקה אין אדם טורח בסעודה ומפסידה. And here, he's not losing any seudah by claiming that that that he found that to be פתח פתוח. So the Shulchan Aruch might go like this again? Well, wait, yeah. So would would the beit din force him In other words, say that she is mutar now to you because of the safek sfeika. Now, does he have any right to give a get at that point at all? A husband always has the right to give a get. Okay, so and if he did, he'd have to pay the ketubah. Yes. He has he has no obligation, hey! He has no obligation. He has no obligation to what? To give a get. He has no obligation to give a get. Unless she demands it. Unless she demands it. He has no obligation. Yeah, he's a good guy. So no obligation required. Right. So In a way, so what he does this possibly, I know this is in the middle of it, he alleviates his guilt conscience and whatever issues are there על פי הלכה of any issur for him not to be with her because you know, if he knows from the halachah point, fine. But anyway, he knows that this is safek sfeika. So let me let me just take care of this, we go to the בית דין, and tell what I what I've seen, and and it's mutar and therefore nothing goes to waste and we can continue on and everybody lives happily ever after. Even here, okay, that's Yeah, but the Gemara that we reached the sevara, means there has to be like a deterrent that he wouldn't claim it for no reason. If it's false, he would not come with the claim because he's going to lose something. You've got to give him something that he's going to lose, but he's not losing anything. But if it's not false, he has to come. He has to say something. And it's true. Yeah. And it's true. But how does the בית דין know if it's true or not? Then that ruins the chazakah. Now what's the chazakah, that what? First, he wouldn't lie. Why wouldn't he lie? Well, if he lies, he could have given her a get beforehand. Right, if he didn't like her. If he didn't like her. And he's going to lose all his money now if he's lying. Maybe he didn't realize he didn't like her until after and that's all. Okay, and if he's and if he was lying, or if he's telling the truth, he's losing all this money. If he's telling the truth, okay, so I'll lose all the money. But if he was lying, he had a more affordable way to get rid of her. Give a get beforehand. Give a get beforehand. Well, you don't have the chazakah. The whole point, the whole chazakah is to have the truth. Yeah, because he will lose out, so he will only come with a claim if it was really true. So wait, what are you