Does Handing Over a Hotel Room Key Count as a Sale?
Does Handing Over a Hotel Room Key Count as a Sale?
Part of Pesach
Explores chametz ownership questions in rentals and hotels, the Tosafos-Rashi machloket on whether a key constitutes a full kinyan, and the Rogatchover's ten-fold analysis of types of acquisition.
Audio Transcript
rent the car from him? And the chametz in there was the Jews'? Yeah. Well, I don't know, maybe. So, it shouldn't just be any Jewish grocery store. Just hanging. The chametz is there if there's like Because it's not you're You're not living there. There's a minibar You're not living there. No, you can't eat of go and buy Plus, eating is something We're not talking about eating, we're talking We're talking about getting rid of it. Yeah, what if there's a minibar in a hotel? Yeah. So, if it's a Jewish hotel if it's a Jewish-owned hotel, then you would theoretically not be able to have that in your But you don't live in that part, you live in your own room. Well, the minibar is in the room. Oh, that is not. It means, it means Oh, that's not, put into a barn or a Yeah, you bought it not You bought it not to get rid of it. All right, even after Pesach? Yeah, if it's there from Pesach, from before Pesach. If you rent a Well, wait, but if you see it, and you know it's, and you don't eat it, because ืืืฅ ืฉืขืืจ ืขืืื ืืคืกื, there's no ืื ืืจืื. You just, we're afraid you might come to eat it, but if you put it away on the side If you rent a car, you have no kibbud of it? Yeah, but they don't know who owns it. Who's that? On Pesach? Yeah, on Pesach. How about on Erev? You rent a car for five o'clock Probably, probably. I would think so. I would think so. Anyway, so the din that you have to be ืืืืง, not to not to have chametz around, ืืจืื ื whatever it is, that's a ืืื ืืจืื ื. We're talking now at the ืืื when the ืืืืื made this ืชืงื ื, which we're talking about here about the ืืืื ืชืงื ื when this ืืื starts as the ืชืงื ื of the beginning of this ืืื. So, this So
according to Tosafot, you need ืืกืืจืช ืืคืชื, according to Rashi, you need the kinyan. Why, he According to Rashi, it has to be his before, and according to Tosafot, it has to be ืืฆืื now. What's according to the Ran? The both. Cuz people say the Ran learns a mixture of Rashi and Tosafot. The Ran learns that it's not really yours now, so mimeila it depends on whether it was before. The Ran also learns that on the other hand it's like it's now yours because it's ืืฆืื by you. So, you have to have the ืืฆืื and the and the kinyan, so you have to have the kinyan and and the ืืคืชืืืช, they have to keep both. What What happens when somebody only has one, according to the Ran? What do you do? You don't make the deal? It can't be. Ah, it's not yours, it's the ืืฉืืืจ. Yeah, one of them had to be. One of them had to. The ืืฉืืืจ had the key and and owned it. Now, what happened now? What did he do? Gives to him. He gives over the key. Gives the key, right, gives the key, but the intention like Tosafot said, because he's going to rent it. The intention, he's going to rent it, yeah. So, it's He doesn't have the key, but he So, then it's the ืืฉืืืจ, because that key didn't He didn't get rid of it, because it has to be go away from him. So, be'etzem, the key is on would be on him. It never left him. The owner for sure starts out, the landlord for sure starts out Starts off, right, right, right. until he gets gets rid of both. Gets rid of both, right! Right, right, he has to get rid of both in order to be patur. And then that chiyuv goes on him. So, I'm just trying to explain why, according to Tosafos, even if it's not yours, because it's not the kinyan that counts here, and according to Rashi, the kinyan counts, according to the Ran, it's it's it's like a combination of both. And we find all kinds of Gemaras for this in in in takeh in in ื ืืืงืื, but we'll we'll just stop here.
According to Rashi, the key makes a kinyan, right? According to Rashi, it is. So Whether it's only by ืฉืืืจืืช or by regular, that's a question. That's the two shitos. By regular, what? Whether a key is a kinyan by selling also or only by renting. But by renting ืืกืฃ, ืฉืืจ, ืืืืงื ืืกืฃ, ืฉืืจ, ืืืืงื for sure, but the question is on the key, whether it's only by renting or by everything. That's the two shitos. Is there no regular question when he uses the key? So, when you rent a car He already gave the reason, because the landlord The one that has the key It's not, then as soon as he takes the key and uses it, that Then maybe that's a kinyan. is a transference, That That's a that's a kinyan. That could be, yeah. In terms of ืืืืงืช ืืืฅ, you could tell that it's a good Kiddushin. That's a good question. Stop. Where do you make that that that the din of ืฉืจืืคืช ืืืืฅ in your reshus is the same ืืืจ ืฉืืืื ืฉื ืืื ืืืืชื? ืืฉืชื ืืื ืื, you're saying the three levels of of a ืฉืจืืคืช in your reshus, you're learning out from the three No, I'm not saying it becomes your shaliach. I'm saying a klal is a concept of three I'm calling the ikar klal. Where every place where the Torah says that there is something that is not, and it turns into something else, you have the same chakirah. Where How do you That's in That's, look at the sichos, probably 30 times. That what? That ืฉืืืื ืฉื ืืื ืืืืชื? No! At everything else. The same geder, the same The same three, if you look at it, you'll see it's the same three. Where else is there? And I once gave a shiur, there's 15 places I mentioned where the Rebbe explains it in different words, it's always the same tsugang, the same gang, the Rebbe has this gang in everything.
I'll give you an example of, I think, I mentioned ืชืืกืคืช ืฉืืช. A minute before Shabbos is not Shabbos. There is a din it should be like Shabbos. So, the Rebbe has three shitos. One shita is ืชืืกืคืช ืฉืืช is like Shabbos, even though it's not Does the ืจืื ืืืื one of the three things I don't know if he's modeh. It's it's it's it's medumeh it's medumeh automatically. ืืื ืืืจ ืฉืืืฉ ืืืจืื It's But the Rebbe says, so he has be'emet sometimes the Rebbe has four, which goes, even one of the three breaks into two. Like ืชืืกืคืช ืฉืืช, he has four. ืืฉ ืขืื ืฉืืืฉ No, no, that's a that's a fourth one. Here, yeah, it's a fourth, like here, one of the three breaks Whatever, yeah. It could be, takeh you know, sometimes you could think you could compare the fourth target to this also. Four is better than five? Huh? Four is better than five? So, there, he says, or or the pshat is that it's ืืืฉ ืฉืืช, or the pshat is it's not Shabbos at all, but the person has a chiyuv not to do melachah, or a person has to be mekabel on Shabbos. I can give you speaks about the gilayon of a ืกืคืจ Torah, it says gilayon of of of a ืกืคืจ Torah has kedushah. ืืืืก ืคืืจ ื ืขื ืื ืืืืืื ืขืืฉืื? ืก'ืืื ืืืืืื ืฉื ืกืคืจ ืชืืจื, ื ืืืจ ืืขื ืื ืฉื ืืืืืื. ืื ืคืชืืื? It could be both. ืก'ืืื ื ืฆืืฉืืขื, ืืืก ืืื ื ืืฉื complete opposite! Complete opposite! This is so far from the ืคืืืืืฉืข ืืจื. This is ื ืฆืืฉืืขื? No, the Rogatchover is the worst in this, I know, but it's not a ืฆืืฉืืขื. The ืจืืืืืฉืืืืขืจ ืฉืืขืื ืฆื ืืืืืขื ืืื ืงืืืฅ, and that's not a ืฆืืฉืืขื of ืืืืืขื ืืื ืงืืืฅ. He looks into the ืขืฆื ืื ืงืืื, and the ืฆืืฉืืขื is so clear that it's ืืืฉ ืืืื ืืื! The
Rogatchover says, comes out that the whole Torah is ten sevarot. Ten what? Ten sevarot. The whole Torah is ten sevarot: cheftza and gavra, and ืืื ืืคืจื, and ืคืืขื ืื ืคืขื, and and and then, and and a million different sugyot, but all the different sugyot R'' Chaim Brisker does the same. He only does two, not three, that's his problem. No, but his is a difference. He doesn't put two things to compare one to the other like that. Comparison? Makes, if he makes all three, he makes chilukim. He likes chilukim and comparisons. Later on we spoke about this, that the difference Rogatchover and R'' Chaim, Rogatchover has everything into three, R'' Chaim's thinks everything is into two. Also the ืฉืืืืืช he would have two, and the Rogatchover divides it in three. But the Rebbe has this in everything where you have afilu, I remember a she'eilah when you give ืืืืืจืื, you have to give in a kli, and you have to give the kli. What is the geder of the kli? The kli is not ืืืืืจืื. Is, and the din is it's like ืืืืืจืื. Is it mamash the din of ืืืืืจืื, or is the pshat is that it's not ืืืืืจืื, but the din is that you have to do with it what you do with ืืืืืจืื? Or it's not ืืืืืจืื, but it's like the din of ืืืืืจืื? It goes into, brings chilukim. Every This is, if I say 30, I'm probably not even ืืืื. 30 places he says this geder. No, this is the taytsh. When the When the Torah compares something, well how far does it go? Also the dinim of of ืงื ืื for The rest of it, the dinim of the dinim of ืงื ืื for for for karka is in a ืคืกืืง. The Gemara ืืจืฉ'ื ืก out all different types of kinyanim. How could So when it comes to ืฉืืืจืืช, how do you know automatically that everything Wouldn't you need a ืคืกืืง, ืืื How does the Gemara know that ืืฉื ืฉืงืจืงืข ื ืงื ืืช, is like Yeah, but who says it? Because ืฉืืืจืืช is basically a ืงื ืื ืืืื. It's not the same, but it's like it. The Rambam says that ืฉืืืจืืช, like renting, is like buying for a time. It's not ืืืฉ, because there be such a thing as buying something for a time. And the Rambam asks, what is the difference if I say I'm buying this house for a year or I'm renting it for a year? There's a difference. If I buy a house for a year, I could do with the house what I want. But then when I give it back, I have to fix it. I can make holes, I can break it, but I have to give it back because I I now it goes back to you. But if I rent it, I can't do anything because it's not mine. But on the other hand, the Rambam says also the ืืฉืื that ืฉืืืจืืช is like a ืงื ืื ืืืื, it's like I have the right to use it for a certain amount of time. You have to look in the Kesef Mishneh. He's ื ืืฉื ืื ืืชื if you need a ืคืกืืง that it should be a kinyan. You mean that let's look in the Rashbam. What did the Rashbam learn is obvious, because the Rashbam says clearly. Rashi, it's not clear. Rashi just says, ืืฉืื ืืืื ืงื ืื. Kinyan! ืงื ืื ืืฉืืืจืืช. What does it mean kinyan always? Could be ืฉืืืจืืช is different like this. ืงื ืื ืืฉืืืจืืช. So, somebody came with a re'iyah that the Rambam was right, because the Rambam in a ืชืฉืืื says, Rashi says ืืฉืื ืืืื ืงื ืื, ืงื ืื ืืฉืืืจืืช. So it's a ืจืืื, ืงื ืื ืืืื. So, you could say, but the Rashbam says very clearly. If he has a ืคืกืืง for it, or maybe he learns that it's included, similar to the other ones, since it's similar, like ืืืงื maybe. I you have to look for sure. There is a ืกืคืจ, which part? The Rashbam ืืื ืืชืจื, which ืืฃ is? ื \"ื, ื \"ื, something, I Bava Batra? Yeah. There is a ืกืคืจ called Sefer HaKinyanim. So I'm saying that lately, a guy now made it. It's very, it have to be a thick ืกืคืจ called Sefer HaKinyanim. All the Gemarot and everything with it is ืืงื ืื ืื. So maybe he has there, have to look to see if they have a pasuk or what, but you see here you could say, Rashi to say, so if you have no pasuk, how could you make up something? But the Rashbam makes it very clear, so it's a clear zach, so you just a pasuk, or it's included in one of these pesukim. Cuz there could be kinyanim which are not in pesukim, also. Cuz there are kinyanim which are made up by people. Like the handshake. Handshake, a handshake, or or or the what is this, ืกืืืืืชื? Or or the stripe on the ืืืืืช, make a line on a ืืืืืช, or things like that. So there are kinyanim. It all depends on what is the geder of a kinyan. The Maharit, the
Maharit has a she'eilah if the kinyan is like ืกืืืืืช ืืขืช, that you decide, and a kinyan, the Maharit says, the Maharit, there's a Maharit on this. And so then, except kiddushin, so kiddushin is a kinyan's a din. There is a ma'aseh, so it's a ma'aseh kinyan. But over there, it's only, only the fact that you make up your mind. But since how do you know what the guy thinks, so you have to do something, so then you could make up also. If you all kinyan is a ma'aseh, whatever. But, but there are such things. But look at this exactly, where they would take this, which pasuk or which ืืืืื it? ืืืืืจืืืชื, is there something called renting? Shomrim. Renting something that was... Socher, yeah. You can rent things for sure. The Torah, in the in the pasuk it talks about shomer chinam, shomer sachar, sho'el, v'socher. I thought that was renting for like an animal, right? Doesn't matter. ืืืื. Do you make a kinyan when you rent, when you're a shomer? Sure you make a kinyan. You make a kinyan? Or when you're a shomer? Yeah, ืฉืืืจ ืฉืืจ, ืฉืืืจ ืื ื. You give him the object, that that's itself the kinyan. I don't know, what if you have someone, what if you're not there to accept it, to take it, is that an exception? It says here. It's the same. Then become a shomer then. I think there is a Gemara where it says, how is a shomer a renter? Erev Pesach. A shomer is a renter? It talks about the same law regarding buying and selling, possession, kinyan, everything else like that. In normal times, maybe, maybe not Erev Pesach. What? The normal things of possession of ownership. Why not Pesach? Well, because the Gemara says Erev Pesach, and it's a specific time because to... Right, yeah, yeah. But we're talking about the house, automatically the chametz. We're talking about bedikah, who has to make the bedikah. Yeah, based on who owns the house, does depend on the kinyan of the house. Who owns the house, he has to do bedikah. So how the ืืืืง house is bedikah? Yeah, but what if they have in mind, why does it have to say like that, everything else? Therefore, maybe, giving him the key without an action, would you say for that, don't need an action for landlord? Not for that, but there is, the other guy accepts it. It will work for key fob. Something like, you know, you lift the yarmulke, you can make a kinyan for him if you didn't have a ืืื. So that's nothing, that doesn't mean anything, it's no act. The only thing is I have now you've given me the right to open the door, that's all, but he didn't do anything to the house. Okay. Not for Erev Pesach.