question is as follows: רב הונא told us that גר קטן could be מטבילין אותו על דעת בית דין, could be טובל על דעת בית דין, and obviously the reason why we're טובלing him is in order to convert him. And the question which we left over from yesterday was, we'll start with the first question, which why are we mentioning specifically the טבילה? We know that a גר also needs מילה, ברית מילה. To this קושיא, the ראשונים asked already, and I'll tell you what the ריטבא says. The ריטבא really gives three תירוצים in here. He says, והא דנקט, that which our גמרא focused on, that which our גמרא focused on specifically the טבילה, here we go, that when we're talking about a convert, why does the גמרא focus on the טבילה, the immersion in the מקוה, what about the fact that he needs a ברית, a ברית מילה? So, says the ריטבא, our גמרא What's that? קבלת מצות. קבלת מצות is going to be another question which we're going to get to. קרבן, no. קרבן? קבלה, yeah? קרבן גר, I never heard of that. You

happen to remind me that I heard once from, who was this again? ישראל טויבער told me he was sitting once with ר׳ שמשון פינקוס, and ר׳ שמשון פינקוס asked him, what would you do if you found out right now that you weren't Jewish? What would you do? Like a cheap movie, I'd convert. So he said like, you know, right away I'd run in to become Jewish. Yeah. I've been doing it all doing it for like two years, at least. So, ישראל, is this assuming I'm circumcised already or not circumcised? Well, okay, that puts a new... Yeah. So he asked ר׳ שמשון פינקוס, what would you do if you found out that you weren't Jewish? So he said, well, first I'd bring a קרבן, and then I would go run in to convert. Because an ordinary Jew cannot bring a קרבן, but a גוי, a non-Jew under certain circumstances, which we're not going to go into the הלכה now, could bring a קרבן. בלמה? Maybe. Yeah, I'm not getting into that now. So ישראל טויבער said, okay, I understand the difference. Because ישראל טויבער survived the Holocaust, he said, my whole life, all I'm fighting for, what he stands for is יידישקייט. After all, the Jews were persecuted and how much of a privilege he felt it is to be else to be a Jew and survive all the persecution, the first thing he would do would be running to become a Jew. But ר׳ שמשון פינקוס, as much as he had an appreciation for יידישקייט, but he also spent a lot of time of his life learning about the בית, learning about the קרבנות. So if he has an opportunity to actually bring a קרבן, he wants to run and bring a קרבן. Anyway, that's before the conversion. I thought there was a שיטה that a קרבן, somebody says a קרבן, we have to bring money. When משיח comes, he'll bring. Maybe when משיח comes, I don't know. So why wouldn't he have to bring So anyway, so

let's go through the the general steps that a גר has to go through are what we know firstly, what our גמרא is talking about is the טבילה, going into the מקוה. And what the ראשונים are asking, which the גמרא does not make reference to, is the מילה. And thirdly, there's one more factor here which is really, at this point, not so clear. We're going to try to define it a little better, about informing him about the מצות and seemingly his acceptance of the מצות, that he has an idea of what he's getting himself into. Now is he accepting, have to accept the קיום of שכר of the מצות, or just to know what the מצות are? Just to know? Yeah, I mean so basically that's the question. So, what I'm focusing on now, right, so right now putting the קבלת מצות on side for a second, we're going to get to that in a minute. We're asking the first question is why not מילה? So, hang on a second. So, three three answers. The ריטבא's first תירוץ is because we want to say something which is שייך by any גר. Therefore, we did not say ברית מילה. ברית מילה is something which is only by men. You don't want to discriminate. נשים? I guess. Why can't Okay. You're not you're not going to find anything like that, dude. Okay. אי נמי, זאגט ער, the ריטב״א talking here gives a second reason why the גמרא only mentions טבילה and not מילה. Reason number three, he says, is because You have one answer. You you said it. He says because there is a there's a הלכה that גר שמל ולא טבל כאילו לא מל, that the מילה is worthless if he only did the ברית מילה and he didn't do the טבילה, the immersion, like completion of a גר. When he goes into the מקוה, that really completes the process. Therefore, we're focusing on the גמר. Yeah, but we'd only be focusing on the end the end part, everything else was done. Well, it seems it seems like the גמרא that he quotes, and then I'll look into this גמרא, but it seems like this is the the process that completes it. The טבילה completes the the גר. Yeah, I say that, but would you would you say about that, would you say that טבילה without without without being a מילה is nothing also? Like he would have to טובל again. Huh? Would he have to טובל again? He just טובל before the מילה. I have to I have to double check it. The מילה itself before he goes into the מקוה is not going to do it. Ah, okay. I think that's how it goes. If a kid would be מילה is ברית. It's circumcision. If a kid would be converted Yeah. Well, that is that finish it? Complete it. Yeah, completely. And lastly, the ריטב״א gives a third alternative explanation, and he says that it's going to really bring us to the גמרא later, which we're not really going to get into yet, but the גמרא later tells us that when this קטן, when this when he grows up and he becomes בר מצוה, he has the ability to, what we call, be מוחה. He can protest this conversion, and he has we're not going to get into the details of if he's like accepting it new when he's 13, or if it's like a continuation of what he already accepted and he has the opportunity to throw it off if he wants to, but the point is there's a certain step which is really really finalized when he actually matures and becomes a גדול, and what the חידוש here is that the מילה goes without saying that it's something which when he gets the circumcision, when he gets the ברית, it's something which lasts forever, like an אות בגוף that is everlasting. So even if there's like a renewal, a קבלה to a certain extent by when he's when he's done בר מצוה, but he has that that step of the process, the fact that he had the מילה, that's there already. Says the ריטב״א, that is the same חידוש as what רב הונא is telling us, even a bigger חידוש, that even the מקוה that he dips in the מקוה when he's maybe four years old, למשל, that will still work for him even when he becomes a גדול, and there's no זכר, there's no nothing left of that immersion that you can see anymore by the time he turns 13, but it's still effective and it'll still be, as long as he does not like be מוחה and rejects the the גרות, it will still be it will work for him. Three תירוצים. גימל מהלכים. Yeah. Third one I didn't get. Third one you didn't get? First two were Good. And the last one is that there's an extra חידוש in טבילה, there's something more of a חידוש in the טבילה that even though it doesn't last until he's 13, nothing that's that's there's no זכר for it by the time he's actually בר מצוה and the and the he has his last opportunity to to reject the גרות, and that's when the actual גרות is really really completed, it's not here anymore. Still that טבילה works that he did 10 years ago. Yeah. Whereas a ברית, it's It's still here. Still there. Still here, so it's not as much of a חידוש that the ברית that he had when he was maybe three years old or however old he was will work for him in the future, because the effect of the ברית you can still it's still visible by the time he has his last opportunity to reject the the גרות, the conversion. I don't understand with the טבילה, I mean he still has to reaccept, and again you didn't want to get into that. Yeah, so we're not going to get into that now. It's not so clear. I mean right now we're not getting into that. Does he have to reaccept, or is it just that בפשטות he has he has an ability the פשטות is that he has an ability to reject the גרות, the conversion. If he does not if he does not reject it, then בפשטות it was really effective from when he went to the מקוה. Is it is this based on if it's דרבנן and דאורייתא, in other words That does play a role. We're going to get to that, hopefully, not tonight. Well, the דין of גרות has to be דאורייתא, right? Yeah, learn תוספות, which we did. Not if not if you're a קטן, though, isn't that right? What? Not if you're a קטן. תוספות has an issue with a קטן, there's no זכייה for a קטן, so Right, if it's a גדול then unless he grew up and he's a גר, then it's not, right? If if it's a גדול. Yeah, right. This this is not tonight's שיעור. We're going to get to that hopefully, בעזרת השם. Like I'm saying, it's a big סוגיא. Gotta take it one step at a time. One step at a time. So, now I want to get to the other question. The other question here that the ריטב״א is מעורר, and this is going to take us a little bit into a topic for itself. Now, what about, well, the

way the ריטב״א words it is there's a הלכה that you have to מודיע, we're going to word it slightly differently than קבלת המצות. You have to be מודיע, you have to inform the prospective convert about the מצות. And the גמרא really in יבמות tells us that והיינו שהודיעוהו קלות וחמורות. There's different מצות, certain מצות are considered more lenient מצות, and certain מצות are חמורות, more severe מצות. And I'm not going to go through the גמרא, but the פוסקים and it's brought down in שולחן ערוך, the this step of the process. And the מחבר tells us that what you have to do is מודיעים אותו, you have to inform him, one who's coming to convert you have to inform him, עיקרי הדת, the fundamentals of יידישקייט, Judaism, שהוא ייחוד השם, that the fact that הקדוש ברוך הוא is one, the איסור עבודה זרה, and how it's forbidden to serve idols, ומאריכין עמו בדבר זה, you spend time, אריכות, you spend time focusing on this ענין, and מודיעים אותו מקצת מצות קלות ומקצת מצות חמורות, tell him about some of the more חמור מצות, some of the more, the more lenient מצות, to give him an idea of what he's getting into. Tell him also about the עונשים, the punishments of the מצות, and tell him how until today, or until you convert, you could eat חזיר, you eat pig, and no problem. You eat חלב, no problem. You convert and you eat it, and punishable. So, this is one of the steps of the conversion. So what about, how does he scam away? this קטן, I mean, especially if we're talking about a a real young minor here that we mentioned last night, we could be talking even about even about, you know, could be a 3-year-old. So

what happened to this הלכה of informing him about the מצות in order for him to be able to accept the מצות? Well, you could inform him. Yeah, but I mean for all practical purposes he's not really being informed because he doesn't have any שכל. Talking about a 3-year-old, a 5-year-old. You use Legos. Building building blocks. They respond to Legos. What are you saying? Why is this a קושיא? וואס שייך דא? וואס שייך דא? So so what do we have there by a קטן? Can you really be מודיע him קלות וחמורות? No, no. They don't understand the concept. Could be an older child. Oh, 12 years old? 4-year-old, I mean the הלכה is by any קטן. I don't think I don't even know if kids have it altogether. What, you think they don't have the difference between קלות וחמורות? They don't understand the concept of... No, they don't, I don't think they understand the concept of of יידישקייט at all. No, they see differences. They wear a יארמולקע, those kids don't wear a יארמולקע. Special. That's the way they dress. They know about שבת, they don't eat meat with milk. Come on, you get it at 3 years old already. 3 years old? Really? Please, your kids don't know who's Jewish? I think my kids are smart. Try it. I'm saying, no, you see a little kid and you know that you got this already. They don't understand, they can repeat words, but they don't understand. I don't I don't I don't know. I don't think they understand, I mean they can repeat. They don't have that thing, these deep these deep concepts at 3 years old. At the fundamental state, they don't They can repeat like a parrot. You walk into the store and you tell him, Depends where he's touching. Tell him it's not כשר, they'll say, \"Okay, it's not כשר.\" But you ever heard that story about the lady, lady in the store? No. And her kid was throwing a fit. This black woman in the store, and her kid was throwing a tantrum. She wanted this Kit Kat that was on that was on the aisle right before the cash register. Screaming at the kid, \"It's not כשר! It's not כשר!\" The kid's throwing a tantrum. And then turned to the Jewish lady standing behind her, and she said, \"I don't understand, every time I tell your kids it's not כשר they stop asking for the food.\" It worked? It worked. See? You try it, it works. It's not כשר. She doesn't understand. She sees all these Jewish women, they tell the kids it's not כשר and they stop asking for it. So she tried it on her kid and it doesn't seem to work. Yeah, yeah. So the קשיא is that you're missing this דין of קלות וחמורות? Yeah, the קשיא is that we're going to be missing this דין. But any, I think that Certainly a קטן who's definitely under age of a קטן that we need that the mother has to bring them. Such a קטן is not able to comprehend the concept, right? So that Okay, so then it has to be that the the the mother takes it on on behalf of the On behalf of the קטן. on behalf of the קטן. So, again, the I mean, first of all, the גמרא doesn't make any reference to that, that the mother's taking it on on behalf of the קטן. And it seems like this is not really the kind of thing that this ידיעה, this awareness, someone else's ידיעה is going to help for the actual person who's who's who's converting. So let me tell you what the ריטב״א says and then if this will, we can go into this a little further. Says the ריטב״א, ההוא למצוה. The fact that you have to be מודיע him קלות וחמורות, that's only מצוה ואינו לעכב. Yeah, יעקב, so what we're asking here is this קטן, what we just speak about it last night, is that there's an הלכה that anytime you want to convert somebody, you've got to tell them, you've got to inform them of the מצות. Inform the real מצות, and the more חזק מצות, talking about השם, and how yesterday he could eat חזיר, everything fine, and today he can't. And what happened an hour ago? You're talking about a קטן, he has no idea what the difference between a חזיר, a piece of meat, a piece of horse meat, it's all the same thing to him. So says the ריטב״א that that גמרא that says that when one is coming to convert, you've got to sit down with him, and you got to explain to him the difference between אידישקייט and serving השם and, להבדיל, serving עבודה זרה, says that's only a מצוה means to say, like, extra credit. Not only extra credit, but I guess ideal, maybe the right way to put it. It's ideal. But it's not מעכב. But it's not מעכב. The the conversion is not contingent on you sitting down with him and explaining this. That is what the ריטב״א says. ההוא למצוה, that's a מצוה, ואינו לעכב. It's not to be מעכב. Now, למעשה, the רמב״ם actually פסק's like this. In the רמב״ם, in איסורי ביאה, he says that if you have a גוי ושלא הודיעוהו מהמצות ועונשן, you did not inform him about the מצוה, you did not explain to him about the different punishments, ומל וטבל, and he went through the rest of the process. He had מילה, he had the circumcision, and he had the טבילה. He was immersed in the מקוה. So he had everything else, what he was missing was the fact you didn't sit down with him and explain to him the מצות. זאגט the רמב״ם, הרי זה גר. He's still a convert. He's still a גר. So you see that the רמב״ם seems to understand like the opinion of the ריטב״א. And although it's ideal to sit down and to explain to the convert that yesterday you're not Jewish and you served idols, today you're going to, or whenever you convert you're going to have to This kid has no concept of הלכה, that there's Super Right, he might not know that there's Super-Dooper. So what? So what is he converting to? What is he converting to? So, hold on a minute, I'm not done yet. Okay, so the רמב״ם says that that's not מעכב. The רמב״ם and others are saying that it's not מעכב. It's just מצוה מן המובחר. Only לכתחילה. Yeah. Now, here's where here's where we start running into problems. And the

שולחן ערוך, and this a question I'm about to share with you, there's a מקשה who asks this to the חכמת שלמה. And he says, if you take a look at the שולחן ערוך, and he seems to contradict himself with regard to this ענין. This is what the מקשה asks, so I know you might right away jump on the answer, just hold on a second here. The שולחן ערוך says the following: First he's talking about the steps that a גר, a convert, has to go through, and he talked about some of the process, and he says, כל עניני הגר, all of the relevant ענינים, the process that he has to go through, בין להודיעו המצות וקבלתם, whether it's about informing him of the מצות in order to accept it, בין המילה, whether we're talking about the actual מילה, the circumcision itself, בין הטבילה, or if we're talking about immersion into the מקוה, צריך שיהיו בג׳ כשרים לדון, it has to be done in front of three people that are qualified judges. So this is a a process, certain a specification with regard to the הלכה of the process of a גר has to be done in front of three people that are eligible to be on a בית דין. This means it has to be done by day, like other הלכות of a בית דין, it's it only operates during the daytime. However, says the the שולחן ערוך, מיהו דוקא לכתחילה. This is only if you want to do it properly and you want to do it 100% לכתחילה. אבל בדיעבד, but בדיעבד meaning, if you're not fulfilling it 100% the way it should be, but still, אם לא מל אלא טבל לילה בפני ב׳, if he only immersed himself in the מקוה or only did the circumcision in front of two people, then that is also enough. הרי זה גר, he's still a גר. And then the רמב״ם does not end there. He has one more line here, חוץ, with exception, מקבלת המצות, when it's talking about accepting upon yourself the מצות, שמעכבת, because that is מעכב. If you don't accept the מצות, ואינה ביום ובשלשה. So not only is the שולחן ערוך saying accepting upon yourself the מצות is one of the criteria and necessary, if you don't do it, you're not a גר, it also has to be in front of three people. It's not in front of three people, then you're not even a גר. It didn't have to be in Now, this is one הלכה, this is הלכה ג׳ in סימן רס״ח. Now, in הלכה י״ב, same שולחן ערוך, in הלכה י״ב says, like the רמב״ם, with regard to informing him about the מצות, he says, או שלא הודיעוהו שכר המצות, he says if you do not inform him about the reward of the מצות, ועונשן, as well as the punishment, ומל וטבל בפני ג׳ הדיוטות, and you טבל him and you gave him מילה in front of three הדיוטות, הרי זה גר. He's a גר. So, there seems to be, what the חמדת שלמה asks, seemingly a סתירה here. On the one hand, the שולחן ערוך seems to be saying that not only is קבלת המצות a integral part of the גרות, and it even has to be in front of three, and if it's not in front of three, the whole גרות, whole conversion is out the window. On the other hand, he seems to say that informing the גוי about the קלות וחמורות, the different levels of severity of the מצות, are not מעכב. If you didn't tell him about it, and you circumcised him, and you טבל him, then he's a גר, no problem. לכאורה, this seems like a סתירה, contradiction. So, the חמדת שלמה, and this is maybe what I was trying to avoid, I was afraid to lose my pants on this one, that there's a little bit of a חילוק in the שני הלכות. And he says there's two completely different things going on here. Now, I'll show you what he says in a moment. But he breaks it down to two categories. There's one category of informing

him of the מצות, to be מודיע him, inform him of the קלות and the חמורות, and just making sure that he's aware of what he's getting himself into. That's one idea. The other idea is the actual acceptance of the מצות. And even if he doesn't know exactly what those מצות are, but is he accepting upon himself to follow whatever the מצות may be. נעשה ונשמע. נעשה ונשמע, exactly, right. Ah, okay, that's what you meant? Okay, very good. And simple, that's what כלל ישראל did, נעשה ונשמע, right? We didn't know what the מצות were, we said, whatever you tell us, we'll do it. Right, which is which is why the הלכה really is Yeah, that's why if you look at the the בתי דינים, the courts that deal with the גרים, I mean, I think there's at least I think, at least legitimate בתי דינים, I think there's at least a 5-year process that they have to go through. They have to learn about the מצות. You can't just you can't just jump into it. Now, if

someone jumped into it, and he did it, whatever, maybe he's a גר, fine. But if you want to do it right, they have to know they have to know what they're getting into, and I think they have what they call sponsoring rabbis. Yeah, yeah, I mean, RJC, I don't think is directly involved, but the בית דין. The RCA is involved, yeah. There is a בית דין here. So, this is the לשון of the חמדת שלמה. He says, ודעתי is something which is פשוט וברור, something simple and clear, that there is no question. קבלת המצות, when we talk about קבלת המצות, accepting the מצות, הוא שמקבל עולו בסתם, Blindly accepting to do the מצות, that is what קבלת המצות is. And if one does not accept upon himself to do the מצות, then he is not a גר. צוחק הוא בדעתו של גר. To follow the way of כלל ישראל and to do like everything that the תורה says. The first thing you said like, what's about if you did טבילה and מילה? טבילה, מילה, yeah. Right, טבילה, בדיעבד, look at בדיעבד, טבילה and מילה, בדיעבד could be done with only two people, but they have to be done, so. They have they have to they have to go into the מקוה and they have to get a מילה. They don't, they don't. Right, so is it clear בדיעבד if we don't have to know already? Right, so what we're saying here is like this: that he would be a גר בדיעבד, he would be his conversion would be considered a legitimate conversion if they did not inform him of the מצות, but he did accept upon himself to do whatever the מצות will be. That is the difference. And

that's the לשון, I'll read to you again. This is the difference in the לשון of the שולחן ערוך, where what he says that the קבלת המצות מעכבת, he talks about the קבלה, the acceptance of the מצות. Like what you were saying, maybe the obligation, is that what you meant, the obligation of the מצות? It's here. It's accepting upon himself that whatever the מצות will be, I will do them. And we know that if a גר is is ready to do everything of the מצות except for one, it's not a it's not a גירות. He has to accept the whole the מצות, all. Big question there is the ומיפרע obviously, first פרק. Yeah, we're gonna get that's yeah, that's later. The גמרא talks about that later. Whereas, and that's right, and where and where the שולחן ערוך was talking about where it's not מעכב, where it's not gonna gonna gonna cancel the גירות, that's where it was about being מודיע him, informing him of the different מצות, the קלות וחמורות. And that is what the that is what the חכמת שלמה explains. Okay? So, now hopefully we gained a little bit of clarity here about this פשט as far as informing him of the מצות and being מקבל מצות. So,

although we may have taken care of the fact that when we're dealing with our סוגיא, back to a קטן, one who is converting, these הלכות that I'm telling you about is by any convert, he could be 27 years old, it doesn't make a difference, our סוגיא is talking about a קטן. He doesn't have any דעת, no שכל. So the ריטב״א asks that there is an הלכה with the גמרא in יבמות that says you have to inform him about the מצות. So where do you have that by a קטן, by a minor? So the ריטב״א says it's not מעכב. Even without informing him of the מצות, he could still convert. So that really satisfies the ריטב״א's question. But based on what we see here from the שולחן ערוך, we're only going to be led to a new question: that that only takes care of the problem of being מודיע him, informing him of the קלות וחמורות. What about the קבלת המצות? The guy is all three years old. קבלת המצות? What does he know from קבלת המצות? How is he accepting upon himself the מצות? Is this is this something בית דין maybe could accept for him? Would that really make sense? Or not. That's something he has to be מקבל himself. So, so we got so this is the question I'm posing here, this is the question. So, and for ourselves, that's why we we took care of, our גמרא takes care, טבילה, immersion in a מקוה, that we can do, no problem. מילה, we can do the מילה for him, not a problem. Why בית דין? It does talk about it, that's what we mentioned earlier. As far as informing him of the of the מצות, the קלות וחמורות, so we said that's definitely ideal if you can sit down with him and explain to him what he's getting into. Kind of a קטן, or a 3-year-old? Not a 3-year-old? Any קטן. Any קטן. Any קטן. Any קטן. And what we're left with now is this question is what I'm leaving you with for the moment, is what about the to be מקבל עול המצות, accepting upon himself the מצות? A גר's got to accept the מצות. So there seems seems like there's two עיקרי מהלכים in the אחרונים to deal with this question. At least that I that I saw. I'll start with the שיטה מקובצת. The

שיטה מקובצת asks the question in our סוגיא. And the שיטה says, in one line he goes to the issue: דאף על גב, even though we need to be מקבל the מצות, דצריך קבלה, he needs to accept upon himself the מצות, הני מילי, this is only היכא דאפשר, where it's possible. Meaning, it could be מעכב, meaning when it's possible for the convert to accept upon himself the מצות, then he has to. And if he doesn't, the conversion And no, yeah, no conversion. By a קטן, where it's a minor, and it's לא אפשר, and he's at a stage of life where it's not possible for him to accept upon himself the מצוות, then it's not מעכב. Even if he's not מקבל on himself the מצוות, he is still to be considered a גר. Is there a threshold for the amount of מצוות you have to know? Like קבלת מצוות. So, I mean, none of us know all the מצוות, only the עיקרים. In the reverse. In the reverse, yeah. In the reverse, exactly. He

had a five-page from Rabbi Bomzer, you remember? That's like an SAT? Yeah, five pages of questions that a גר has to answer. Oh, like a Regents. Like a גר Regents. A Regents! They gotta go through at least two years. Do all the מצוות except for one. Right, right, right, right, yeah. I wonder how I would wonder how much I'd even be able to answer. I wonder how much I'd even be able to answer. I think you would be able to answer. When is it possible? Is there a case for a גדול where it's not possible, where it's okay? A case for a גדול, that I don't think so. Not that I know of, I don't think so. Now, you have to look at that. Now,

there's a לשון of תוספות, which brings us back to something which we mentioned earlier. תוספות, not here, but in מסכת סנהדרין. תוספות in סנהדרין says, you ready for this? The long, the big תוספות, the last line it says that by our, our גר, our convert, אין חסרון, the only thing we're missing is, אלא, what are we missing? This last question that we asked, which is קבלת המצוות. So, what do we do, how do we deal with it? We're missing קבלת המצוות, something very necessary, something big. זאגט תוספות: מתוך שגדל, now, when he, being as he grows up, and he matures, and he becomes a גדול, ולא מיחה, and he does not reject the conversion, היינו קבלה, that itself is the קבלה. Okay? So, what the תוספות, the words of the תוספות, the words of the תוספות are, that really even by a גר קטן, there is some kind of קבלה of מצוות. And תוספות seems to be saying it might not be at the moment right now, because he's too young and doesn't understand, but when he becomes a גדול, and he's not מוחה, he does not throw off the גרות to say I don't want to be a גר, I'd rather stay a gentile, so that itself qualifies for what's necessary for the קבלת המצוות. So it is למפרע, like what you always say? Sort of למפרע, yeah. So what I meant by למפרע is something different. Say he was holding by it, and then he became not פרום, and he didn't want to be Jewish, but he's still... So it's the opposite. It would be bad. It's the opposite, למפרע would be you'd want him to He can touch wine? יין נסך if he touches the wine, he's... Yeah, so it could be, yeah, so they seem to be different... Yeah, there are different ways of approaching this the line in תוספות and what he means here.

One of the explanations that I saw quoted from the חתם סופר was that he is on a דאורייתא level, I mean, on a תורה level sort of in limbo, and he's recognized as a גר מדרבנן until he becomes a גדול. מדרבנן he's recognized as a גר, and it could be if he touches wine, as long as he doesn't actually make יין נסך, but he won't make the wine טרף just touching it. Won't won't be considered סתם יינם because the רבנן will recognize him as a גר. However... Who's this? Who'd do that? Huh? The kid who touched the wine? This this young kid. Even though he's on a תורה level maybe still considered a gentile, because he's missing the last step here. Uh-huh, yes. three to whatever it is, a בית דין. Right. And however on a תורה, in a תורה the the גירות will kind of be completed when he becomes a גדול and he does not reject גירות. Now this is what I saw quoted with חתם סופר, but I didn't really have time yet to really try to understand completely כוונתו, but one thing which struck me was that we mentioned earlier that if קבלת המצות, if the שולחן ערוך פסקנ'ס that קבלת המצות is מעכב, something which is necessary, without it you're not a גר. Not only that, the שולחן ערוך said it also has to be done with three people. It has to be three qualified דיינים, three judges. So what I wasn't sure about, tell me what you think, what I wasn't sure about is according to his הבנה in תוספות, does that mean that when he becomes a גדול, do we have to have maybe like a בית דין to see that he has this opportunity to reject the גירות and he's kind of now not rejecting it, accepting it upon himself in order to finalize the completion of the גירות? That would seem so. So לכאורה, right, לכאורה it would seem to follow Don't they have them make, like, want them to perform a מצוה? Does that mean something ritualistic? Because of the גירות or just because of the בר מצוה? I know a

family that the guy's Jewish. He wasn't פרום, married a non-Jew. He wanted to convert and become פרום while their kids were not Jewish, but they went to they went to a Jewish school. Right. Not an Orthodox school, so that's definitely not. So She became She became Jewish, but for her children, she probably wanted her children to be Jewish. As an aside, the children are learning in Lakewood now, but Yes, exactly. Lakewood and Baltimore, but, so, they came to they could have they could have gone to the מקוה 13 after this. Wait, they don't have to go to the מקוה again, I don't think. If they go if they went to the מקוה when they were a קטן, this is what our גמרא is telling us. They can have ברית מילה when they're a קטן. They could have the immersion, they could have the מקוה when they're a קטן, then when they're 13, what would seem to follow, based on what we're saying here from the חתם סופר, I don't know if this is what we פסק'ן הלכה למעשה, but what would seem to follow is that they have an opportunity to reject the גירות if they don't want it, when they turn 13, and if he, in front of three people, completes his acceptance of the גירות, then he would be considered a גר מדאורייתא, and halachically מדאורייתא only be a גר as of 13 and onward, and until 13, possibly would would have been like מדרבנן, he would have been considered Jewish. מדאורייתא, seems like he would not yet have been considered Jewish. I'm not sure, but I think to be מחמיר, they could just do that. Could be. Maybe that's okay. This this is so far from what I see from the סוגיא. Maybe they're Could be, they do the dip again? You ever heard of this? Never heard of this. Maybe maybe they do the dip again. I don't know. I'll look into it. Double dipping. But yeah. I mean, is it common, this this Father was Jewish, mother Father was Jewish, mother converted. I had a I

had a very close friend when I was a kid. His father was Jewish. Mother was not Jewish, but she converted when he was very young, and he grew up, went to ישיבה just like the rest of us. And and I I remembered like when I was even young, I remember learning about some some kind of idea about it, how when he becomes בר מצוה, he could reject the גירות if he wants. And I was all nervous cuz I was good friends with him, and I knew that, so I didn't want to lose my friend there. And I wasn't sure how it was gonna be, and sure enough, he had a בר מצוה, I was invited to his בר מצוה, so I figured he knew he was okay. Well, the story doesn't end there, unfortunately. Yeah, so this this gets a little tricky, you have to be, because later in life he ended up, I think, going I think last I've seen of him, he was a paramedic in Orangeburg, completely not connected at all. Well, that's a whole issue. But he is considered Jewish, right? So, yeah, so that's a tough question. That's why למפרע at that point, you know, whether So, that's a tough question. Is he Jewish or not Jewish? By the way, I owe him credit to my ישיבה background, I have to say, because I was very I really was very very good friends with him, and he had a השפעה on my interest in going to good to a real ישיבה. Really? Yes. So whether he's Jewish or not, it always, it was bothering me. Like, I felt like I was, you know, מושפע, influenced by him, and look what, ברוך השם, and and I feel like I had the opportunity to go learn in this ישיבה. So, now I left I once I was asking the רב in שול about it, or a ראש ישיבה, I think, in Philadelphia. I was wondering maybe he's not really like off the דרך, maybe he maybe he never really fully accepted the גירות, and so he's like a gentile, and okay, so he never really accepted upon himself. I mean, it's a lot worse when someone actually converts, right? You convert and you become Jewish, then you don't follow the מצות. Just like if you're born Jewish and you don't follow, so, you know if one doesn't know any better, doesn't know any better, but if one does know better, then then he's going to have to answer up for himself. So here a convert, he comes and he wants to become Jewish and he converts, and then he throws the whole thing off, and yet halachically he's like an ישראל, like a מומר, he's an ישראל who's just who's disregarding תרי״ג מצוות. So I was asking I was asking if maybe he never really is a convert. He was a kid, his mother converted. He was really not Jewish because his mother wasn't Jewish originally. And maybe maybe I don't have to feel so so bad deep down. Okay, he's not Jewish. It's not not so terrible, and you know he'll have his own life, he'll do his thing, and he doesn't keep תרי״ג מצוות, it's fine. So I don't remember exactly what he told me, but we're going to go into the סוגיא a little more, but it seems like there's a lot of different opinions exactly how this works, this opportunity that he has to reject the מצוות. And it seems like there's a legitimate possibility out here amongst the פוסקים, the מפרשים, that he has to really have an opportunity that he understood what it was all about, and he like said, \"Even so, I want this.\" And it could be if he was kind of just forced into it based on his even if it wasn't, you know, arm-twisted, but his social surroundings and environment, and he just didn't know and that's how he grew up, and then one day it wasn't working out, so not for me. Could be he never really fully accepted it, understanding what it really was. And therefore, we're going to see hopefully hopefully we'll get a chance to go through the different שיטות here, that whether, depending on the particular details, he could still be considered a good גר or not, and it could be even at age 35, he didn't know any better, he's able to still reject the גירות. The question I have is, as you pointed out right now, yeah, sure, there's stringent מצוות and then there's lenient. Right. So So let me ask you, you're going to ask me a famous קושיא, famous בבלי, ירושלמי, you know. True. Yeah. So are you asking that we know that we don't really know the real importance of the מצוות, so how can we treat a lighter מצוה like a...? Is that what you were asking, or? Or something along those lines, or, you know, at what point do you really say that somebody has accepted, not accepted? Okay, so there's certain מצוות maybe they will still keep, other מצוות not keep, so the total convert Right. Yeah, so I mean, so

what we're saying tonight is that there's there's two there's two different points here: there's informing him about the מצוות, and then acceptance. He has to accept everything. He has to accept everything. Now, he might not know of everything, and then it will be his job, just like every Jew, to learn and do the best he can. Right. But he can't he can't say that, \"I'm accepting XYZ, but not the whatever.\" That's what the nations did at מתן תורה. No, they were all this way, \"No, killing? No, we like that.\" Right. Well, I don't know if they accepted at all. Killing? No, we like that. Yeah, you have to think your question is different than the גמרא, like at 13, at 13, anybody Who? Oh, you're talking about your guy? Yeah. Not like your guy. I'm saying you would think that at 13, that's why he's old enough and a גדול, so he'll say if he doesn't want to do it, he'll go and move Right, but the question is I don't I don't know if anyone sat down with him and explained it to him. Right. He might not have known. Why did he have a בר מצוה? Because his parents made a בר מצוה for him. True. Who said, who knows if someone sat down with him and told him, \"Listen...\" Let me make you feel better. You know that if a גוי with the שבע מצוות בני נח is חייב מיתה because if he transgresses any of them, doesn't need a warning or anything. But a ייד is not חייב מיתה, he has תשובה, יום כיפור, ייסורים, there's all kinds of כפרות that you can go through, like... and even if he's חייב מיתה, he's not חייב מיתה, he has to be warned, he has to know, it's a whole thing. And if he did it בשוגג, he didn't mean it. Yeah, yeah, no. No, no, no. Because another thing, I had two experiences with two experiences with גרים in my life. Personal experiences, and I know that I asked I asked the question a couple of times. A rabbi said to me, who was involved, two different rabbis, actually, said that after they've gone through the conversion, and for a couple of years they keep the תורה, the מצוות. After that, if they fall off, they're considered a Jew. If they initially before they fall off initially keep it, and they're sincere and they keep it, and it seems that way to the בית דין, how do you know what's in a person? But they say, as it looks like that, if they do that for a couple of years, then whatever happens after that, if they stop doing it, if they go all the way, or if they kind of... What's the cut-off point, because that was my point of my question, and they answered me, \"Give it a couple of years.\" After that, you know, it's... Because it's very difficult I don't turn it off. I think the הלכה is very not clear. Ask a different rabbi, yeah, yeah, you get a different answer. Big, very big. It's either vague, or nobody knows what they're talking about, because everybody gives a different opinion. Two rabbis, three opinions.