this is the perek of אלו נערות in in Ketubot, which talks about אונס ומפתה, someone is an אונס ומפתה a woman. And it says אלו נערות שיש להם קנס, we're talking about נערות, that means if she's a נערה, and this person or did it by force or convinced her, so then you have to pay קנס, the pasuk says, you have to pay 50 כסף. So, Rashi says, he's דוקא נערה. It's only happens if she's a נערה, which is משהביאה שתי שערות. When is a נערה? A נערה is from when she brings 12 and 1/2? 12, but really what it means is where she brings the two hair, which called סימנים, the signs of her becoming a נערה, עד שתבגור, till she becomes a בוגרת. How much time is it from becoming a נערה till becoming a בוגרת? והם ששה חדשים, six months שבין נערות לבגרות, which is between becoming a נערה and a בוגרת, is six months. At So, if the שערות, the two hair come as it should come in in the average, normally at 12, so, it's between 12 and 12 and 1/2. This is what it is. And this Mishnah, besides, that holds that it's only if she's a נערה. So, the whole דין of קנס is if she's a נערה. That means till she's a נערה, when she's a קטנה, it doesn't apply. From after she finishes being a נערה, when she's a בוגרת, it doesn't apply. It's only this 1/2 a year, נערות and בגרות. So, here what the what we're going to discuss is not so important to this specific piece, but it's going to be this important later to a few blatt later when the Gemara goes into the whole discussion of נערות and בגרות, when she becomes a נערה, a בוגרת, and all the details. So, I'd like to discuss is the details of נערות and בגרות, what is the ענין in halacha concerning this נערות and בגרות, becoming a נערה, becoming a בוגרת. And this is נוגע to the Gemara in Kiddushin. So, who said when she brings the two hairs? What does it mean? What? Who said when she brings two hairs? That they see. Who checks? Checks. You have to check. In halacha, who checks? Who is the check Who? You get two women to check. Like, that's not stuff like Is is it a real issue like or is it now like the like the calendar? Nowadays? Nowadays, obviously. So, you hit that. It's so weird. It's like such a calendar. It's like Yeah, call if you had the two hairs, now this would be 12 and 1/2. Now, the day in which If a If a girl would eat on Yom Kippur, and she's over 12, she has to get killed. But, that's only if she's Yes. What kind of What is it now? It's not נוגע on anything, but then, they would know They would have to check to see if she had two שערות and she's a גדולה. If not, she's a קטנה. Whatever What is it נוגע now? Could get married. Whatever. Could get married. A קטנה could get married. I mean, if the father can give to them. Then, the father does But, yeah. But, I'm saying nowadays, practically speaking, there's no no קטנה gets married. You don't marry when you're 12 or you're 11 or 13. What happens if someone who does? Yes. It could be מקדש. Right. It works out, too, but practically speaking, there is nothing really that we do that it makes a difference, that we have to know if she's exactly See, by a boy that you have to know that he brings two hairs, not the 13, is נוגע. For minyan? No, a minyan, it's say that you could rely on the years. Since he becomes 13, you rely. קריאה, they're saying for others? No, not קריאה. פרשת זכור, though, also, they take They say פרשת זכור, which is de'oraita, he has to read it. He wants to read פרשת זכור. who says somebody from Where? The Brisker shul. They won't rely on it. In the Brisker? Bris, maybe. It's Brisker. Oh, but only that week of the bar mitzvah and 2 weeks later they will, or never? Never, that that they give him that year. I don't know what it is. I just remember once Rabbi Clairfield came to the Yeshiva years ago. He needed two עדים for a get that he was writing. So, he called he called me up and he said, \"I would like you to send two bachurim for a small while. But, remember, send me two bachurim, or that they have beards or that they shave.\" Right. Because if not, we're going to have to check him. Because that's the din. Because they have to be de'oraita, it's חתום מן הגט, you know, that's something else. That's it. Anyway. Cuz he can't trust woman that she'll say that can be She herself, that's true. You can't trust her. But she's not his own himself. Cuz she's a woman, but a man is said to be Also not, but you have to know if a man is has the two שערות. You have to have people who to whom you checked. He can't trust himself.

So, here we have a sugya in the Gemara, I'm just looking to see if it's Cuz I had to go through all the פרק, it's Okay, the Gemara says like this, I mean The Gemara quotes the pasuk, actually, Rashi in Chumash says it says the same thing as the Gemara says. Quotes the pasuk it says by an by an אמה עבריה, the din is that a father could sell his daughter as a אמה, as a maid, and he sells her when she's a קטנה, and the pasuk says ויצאה חנם אין כסף. And then she goes out for free, אין כסף, without money. What it means is that there's a certain time when she goes out. What is the פשט חנם אין כסף, the same thing? So the Gemara says חנם אלו ימי בגרות, that if she becomes a בוגרת, she goes out free. אין כסף, without money, means אלו ימי נערות, when she becomes a נערה. This is what it says. So the Gemara asks, לכתוב רחמנא נערות ולא בעי בגרות. Let the Torah write she goes out as a נערה, then you wouldn't have to write she goes out a בוגרת. A נערה is always before בגרות! So let the Torah write that.

אמר רבה, רבה said, זו ואין צריך לומר זו. It means like this: that the Torah, if the Torah would write one expression, we would have thought it means בגרות. In order for us to know that it means נערה also, the Torah has to write two. That was really, had the Torah written בפירוש the word נערה, you wouldn't have to write בגרות, cuz if she goes out as a נערה, a בוגרת which is later, certainly she's not there. The Torah didn't write it בפירוש. The Torah wrote extra words and from that we learn out. So if the Torah would not write two extra words, and would write one, what would we think? We would think בגרות! We'd always take the later one! So the Torah writes one, and then the Torah writes a second. So now we know one means בגרות, one means נערות. And the Gemara gives an example to this. The גמרא שלעפּס up, it's not נוגע, but the bottom line is that he says like this: that the Torah brings writes נערות, one pasuk goes on נערות and one pasuk goes on בגרות. Huh? Couldn't they both skip the state of נערות? We'll see, in a second we'll see. This is what Raba answered. So Raba said that the reason the Torah writes both because if it were to write one, we would not know the second, we would think really it means בגרות.

Comes Abaye, and Abaye asks a kashya. And the bottom line of the kashya, again not to go into the לשון of the Gemara, the bottom line of the kashya is, why didn't the Torah write בפירוש נערה? When is your idea right? If the Torah doesn't write clearly. So Torah gives us a רמז, we wouldn't know what it means. So if the Torah would only write one, we would think it means בגרות, which is later. So by writing two, we know בגרות and נערות. Why didn't the Torah write clearly ויצאה בנערה, and then you wouldn't have to have any more? You wouldn't have to have two! Therefore, he says a different peshat, Abaye, that what the Torah tries to tell me, why does the Torah write נערות and בגרות, because לא נצרכה אלא לאילונית. An אילונית is a woman who doesn't have סימני נערות. She doesn't have סימנים that she becomes a נערה, so therefore she can't go out in נערות. But when she becomes a בוגרת, if she has סימני בגרות, if she ever becomes a בוגרת, she could go out. Because salka da'atech amina, I would think, נערות תפיק, we would know that you go out as a נערה, so an אילונית who doesn't become an, an אילונית is a woman who can't have children, and she has these different signs, so we would think that a person goes out if you become a נערה, דבגרות לא תפיק, when you're a בוגרת you don't go out. קא משמע לן, that's what the pasuk has to tell us, both נערות and בגרות. If you're a נערה, you go out as a נערה. If you're not a נערה, like an אילונית, you're not a נערה, you go out like you said, you skip that stage and you go to בגרות, you go out as בגרות.

מתקיף לה רב אשי, so Rav Ashi said, but why do you need a pasuk? It's a kal vachomer! לאו קל וחומר הוא? מה סימנים שאין מוציאים מרשות אב, מוציאים מרשות אדון, סימנים, which means when you become 12 years old, if she wasn't sold, she still belongs to her father, she doesn't go out from the רשות of the father. That was her point. She goes out by בגרות. When a נערה still belongs to her father, whatever she earns goes to her father, the father is the one that takes kiddushin for her. So סימנים doesn't take her out from the רשות of the father, but does take her out from the רשות of the master, בגרות שמציאה מרשות אב, בגרות that takes her out from the רשות of the father, אינו דין שמוציאה מרשות אדון? She should be go out from the master! So you have to tell me that בגרות takes her out? אלא אמר מר בר רב אשי, so he said a different pshat: לא נצרכה אלא לזבינא דאילונית. It comes to teach you that you can sell an אילונית, not for going out! Salka da'ata amina, I would think, דאתיא סימני נערות הוי זבינא, since you go out normally as a נערה, so I would think a woman who eventually will go out as a נערה, the sale is a sale, but דלא אתיא סימני נערות, somebody who will never come, if you see that she's going to be like an אילונית who'll never come, לא להוי זבינה זבינא, you can't sell her. קא משמע לן, it comes to tell you ויצאה חנם אין כסף, that even because she will become a בוגרת, she goes out. A father, she could sell herself? Huh? She could sell herself. No, she can't sell herself. Only עבד can sell, a woman can't sell herself. All right, how do you know if a father's not going to have... Okay, so Tosafot talks about it. איבעית אימא, we can say, לידע שלא יבואו בה סימני נערות. 'Kay. So, he says it means למפרע, but later on we shall see that whatever, it's a whole pshat in this. Could the Gemara say that a גדול can have no child? Huh? Can a גדול have a child? Kitzur. So, to explain the pshat in these three what is the why when Rava said the first pshat, that the reason it says both because if it would say one we wouldn't know the other, and comes Abaye and asks him, מאי קסבר? So, let it say בפירוש. Obviously, according to Rava that's no kashya. Why is it no kashya? Why is according to Rava no kashya that let the Torah write בפירוש נערות and we wouldn't need פקעת? And according to Abaye it is a kashya. And then comes Rav Mar bar Rav Ashi asks a kashya on Abaye, It's a kal vachomer. You're telling me the pasuk tells me that in order to know that if she will never become a נערה she still goes at the בגרות, it's a kal vachomer! We make the kal vachomer. According obviously according to Abaye it's not a kal vachomer. There is no problem. Why is this? So, just explain it. So, to go into this just bekitzur. I think we're going to make it bekitzur today, because then I have to leave early.

So, when it comes to this inyan of נערות and בגרות, there is a חקירה how this works. We have here a time when she becomes a נערה, and we have a time when she becomes a בוגרת. There are three ways basically to learn how we approach this. You could learn that נערות and בגרות are two separate stages. A girl when she becomes a נערה, that's a din, she becomes a נערה. Then half a year later she becomes a בוגרת. That's another stage. There are different stages in life, in halacha, in life. Or you could learn that it's all one you call it one תהליך. What's it called, the one A continuation? Yeah, one inyan. There is a beginning No, not alef-bet. There is a beginning and an end. There is one thing. When you start, you start as a נערה and the תהליך, the the Like a butterfly. It automatically has to go one thing Not that that's automatic. Evolves, evolves. No. How do you say, we need the exact The time, the hours. Yeah, it's one thing. It has a beginning and an end. Clear. No, stage is clear. It's a separate stage. It's not separate stages. There is one What is it? Inyan? One process. That's the word. תהליך is a process. That's the word. It's one process. There's a process starts with נערה, finishes with בוגרת. So, the first way is, no, there is one thing of נערות, that's one thing, finished. Whatever, she becomes a נערה, it's finished. Now she's a נערה, fine. Then when it comes to the time half a year passes, she becomes a בוגרת, that's another stage. She becomes a בוגרת, fine. So, different stages in life. Or you could learn it's one process. She becomes a נערה is the beginning of the process and it finishes off at the בוגרת. That itself, when you learn that it's a it's a process, and the beginning and an end, you could learn two ways. You could learn the process is a נערה. When she becomes a נערה, that's the thing that happens. When is her נערות בשלימות? When is her נערות complete? When she becomes a בוגרת. So, this is So, the ikar is the נערה. The ikar is being a נערה, and the completion of the נערות takes a a certain amount of time for that to be complete, and when you become a בוגרת, then it's complete. Or you could say the opposite. The main thing is a בוגרת. There is a beginning. So, in order to get to the real real thing that starts with נערות. נערות is just the beginning of it leading up to the to the thing. The thing is really בגרות. She becomes a בוגרת, and this is the beginning that leads up to it. Similar, so we find someplace else something that we spoke about once in the shiur, a different place, just to give an example where we see something like this, and we have the same three chakirot, and that is when you get married. Remember, they are when you married, there are two stages: אירוסין and נישואין. אירוסין is the קידושין. You give her קידושין, you say, \"הרי את מקודשת לי.\" She becomes an אשת איש. She becomes a married woman, but she's only engaged, but not like nowadays engaged which is really nothing. You become engaged, you become a married woman. If she goes with another man, she gets killed. Then later in those years used to be a year later, you used to give her chuppah, and the chuppah made her into a נשואה. That's נישואין. And now when she's a נשואה, certain things change. She's a married woman before also, but if a woman who is just an ארוסה, just from the first stage, if she goes with another man, she gets סקילה. She will be killed by stoning. If it's after she is already נישואין, she'll get חנק, which is a different thing. Another din, if while she is an ארוסה, and she makes a neder, who can nullify the neder? You need both, the father and the chasan and the husband. When she becomes a נשואה, it's only the husband. Another thing, if she dies, if she dies as an ארוסה, the husband does not ירש, he doesn't inherit. If she dies as a נשואה, the husband inherits. So, there are different dinim. So, huh? Ketubah. The ketubah, that's what we we spoke about then. Is there a חיוב כתובה by an ארוסה? Terumah, not terumah. Terumah, oh. Okay, terumah miderabbanan. Mid'oraita, she could eat terumah right away from אירוסין. If she is married to a kohen, she could eat terumah right away. The rabbanan said that she cannot eat, but still miderabbanan there is a difference. When she is an ארוסה, she cannot eat terumah. When she is a נשואה, she could eat terumah. Here itself, you also could have the same three ways to learn. You could learn there are two separate stages. A woman, she gets married, she's an ארוסה, that's one that's one type of marriage, finished. Then there is another way you can get married, another way yet to get married, which it has different dinim, which call for different dinim. That's what you call נישואין, but they're two separate ענינים. Another way you could learn, it's all one process. Marriage is a process that starts from אירוסין and finishes by נישואין. Used to take a year, the process. Just nowadays it takes a half hour. You start and then you finish right away with a הפסק, with an interruption of of 5 minutes of reading, 10 minutes of reading the ketubah, but it's a process. Starts with אירוסין, finishes by נישואין. When we say it's a process, you could learn both ways. Why take a year? Is there a reason? Used to be a year. Give time to prepare for the ch before?. Stages within a process. Obviously, the beginning and an end, but it's all one process. In the old days. Yeah, yeah. So you could learn the two ways. If you say it's a process, you could learn two ways. You could learn the ikar of marriage is אירוסין. When does the אירוסין come to its completion? If it goes all the way to finish it off by נישואין. Or you could learn the opposite: you could learn that the main thing is the נישואין, and the erusin is the beginning, like the beginning of the process which will come to its end, to its real thing, which is the nisuin, you could learn. Now, over there, just to get into it, over there the reason why, based on what would we think these three ways? So,

a lot of ways to base this חקירה on, but one of the ways is from the way the Rebbe learns the whole thing of kidushin and nisuin. This is the last last volume of Likkutei Sichos, Parshas Ki Seitzei, the Rebbe has a whole אריכות here, very interesting. The Rebbe quotes the Rambam. נון ב? Huh? נון ב? חלק ל״ט. The sicha was given out in נ״א, because נ״ב didn't get to Parshas Ki Seitzei. He had the stroke in Parshas Vayakhel. The Rebbe quotes the Rambam like this: The Rambam says the beginning of Hilchos Ishus, I'll read the Rambam: קודם מתן תורה היה אדם פוגע אשה בשוק... Before מתן תורה, a person would meet a woman in the street, I read this. I am amazed. אם רצו הוא והיא, this... Huh? No no, he we read it like in this sicha, in this sicha. אם רצו הוא והיא, it says that he and she decide they want to get married, nothing you have to do: מכניסה לתוך ביתו, you bring her home, ובועלה, you have relations with her בינו לבין עצמו, for himself, ותהיה לו לאשה, she's his wife. So how do you marry before מתן תורה, which means by a גוי, the same marriage על פי הלכה. If a גוי wants to get married, they go to the What does the תורה say? How do I get married? Nothing! Take her home, decide, you can't force her, make up, speak about it, they decide, you bring her home and she's your wife. That's it, you're married. כיוון שניתנה תורה, when the תורה was given, נצטוו ישראל, the Yidden were commanded, שאם ירצה איש לישא אשה, if a man wants to marry a woman, יקנה אותה תחילה בפני עדים, you first got to be קונה her. You got to acquire her, and that's through קידושין. ואחר כך תהיה לו לאשה, then she can be your wife, שנאמר, it says, כי יקח איש אשה ובא אליה, it says he will take a wife. Then the Rebbe brings further, the Rambam continues: ולקוחין אלו מצות עשה, it's a מצוה, והן הנקראין קידושין או אירוסין, this is called kiddushin or erusin, she's an arusah. כיוון שנקנית האשה ונעשית מקודשת, once she's מקודשת, אף על פי שלא נבעלה, even if he didn't have relations with her, ולא נכנסה לבית בעלה, she didn't even come home, הרי היא אשת איש, she's a married woman. ואם רצה, if he wants to get wanted to, if he wants to get divorced, need a get. What did they do? What did they do? If they didn't bring her home? Gave her kiddushin. He says money. Gave her a ring, gave her money, gave her something, whatever, yeah, for kiddushin, slips. So the Rebbe asks the שאלה here: Why does the Rambam tell us in the Rambam how kiddushin, how marriage used to be before Matan Torah? Who cares? We know that the Rambam is a sefer of halachot. What, are you telling us history, how it used to be before? What's the nafka mina? Then the Rebbe has another שאלה. We've said before there are two stages by marriage: kiddushin and nisuin. And the Rambam here is telling us the whole process. The Rambam tells us about kiddushin. The Rambam does not men mention a word about nisuin here till פרק י׳! For 10 פרקים the Rambam does not mention that there is a inyan of nisuin, and even there he just mentions it by the way. And here in this פרק, the Rebbe brings, the Rambam mentions different subjects concerning marriage, and at the end of the פרק he even goes through with a list, he says, 'I want to give you now a list of all the names and things that have to do,' and one thing he doesn't mention is nisuin, which is a major thing in in marriage. So the Rebbe answers pshat in the Rambam like this: that when the Rambam mentions that they used to, when they used to get married before Matan Torah, they would just bring her home, the Rambam is telling us because according to the Rambam, marriage now did not change. That's whatever used to be marriage then, is still now. That's what nisuin is. What the Rambam adds, is now the Torah wanted that before we do this nisuin, you have to kinyan, you have to do a kinyan. So you can't ask why does the Rambam not talk about nisuin till there? What do you mean he doesn't talk? The first halacha, he's talking about nisuin! And he's telling us what happened before, not just to tell us the history, he's telling us that's what happened, and and it didn't change! What changed is, now what the Eibershter wants is that by Matan Torah, you have to do a kinyan before. That's what it and based on that the Rambam said that's why the Rabbi says that's what the Rambam holds, it's a big machloket, what is nisuin? What exactly is chuppah? There's a big machloket, there's seven shittot what chuppah is. The Rambam's shittah is that when you bring her home, the yichud that you do, that's chuppah. Some hold it's under the canopy, but that's it. Some say when you put on the veil. Some all kinds of shittot what chuppah is, because the Gemara doesn't mention. What kiddushin is, the Gemara mentions. A Mishnah in inyan of קידושין, האשה נקנית בשלש דרכים, בכסף, בשטר ובביאה, three ways. The Gemara doesn't mention a word anywhere what is chuppah. Right, but we don't rely on that, but we do it anyway that we're yotzei somehow, because there are some that hold you could do chuppah before kiddushin. Yeah. So what על הפועל what we do is is basically all the ways. But the main thing that the Rambam holds what is chuppah, you bring her home, Rambam even holds it doesn't it's not just enough to bring home, you have to have yichud. And the yichud that we do now after the chuppah, it's not like we think yichud because they're locked in in a room themselves. It's basically because the room that they're in is considered their house. And that's why the inyan is like the the one that owns that room gives it to you. They give you a I, when I got married, they gave me a key. What key? Yeah, and I was קונה the room. And then you bring her into the room, and you eat something, that is chuppah. You bring her home! The Rambam even holds more, the Rambam holds that it should be a real yichud. Not everyone agrees that the Rambam holds a real yichud. It has to be a יחוד הראוי לביאה. And that's why, according to the Rambam, if she's a niddah, the chuppah doesn't work. Because because that's you can't you can't be ראוי לביאה. Good. But על הפועל, why does the Rambam hold like that? So the Rebbe explains why. Because the Rambam holds that this didn't change from before. What was marriage in the time before Matan Torah? You would bring her home, and and have her as your wife, that's it! So now also, that didn't change! What changed was that you have to do kinyan before. Based on this that the way the Rebbe explains, you could look at it from three ways, and see how it is. On one hand, you could say originally chuppah was, marriage was, just taking her home. That's phase Now there is another thing that Hashem said that you have to have a kinyan. It's another thing! So there are two separate inyanim. So Hashem wants that besides the marriage later, there's a kinyan I want you to do. So you could look at it as two separate stages, it's not a beginning and an end, it's two separate stages. Because this was done before, this is a new din that the Torah gave, so it's something new. So this is one stage that the Torah makes, this is another stage. On the other hand, you could say that what does what does the Rambam say? That the Torah wanted, כיון שניתנה תורה, אם ירצה איש, if a man wants ליקח אשה, יקנה אותה תחילה. You have to קונה her first. In other words, the Rambam seems to be saying that that real thing is the marriage. If you want to marry her, you got to קונה her. So what does it come out? That the real thing is the nisuin. So in order to get to nisuin, be קונה her as a beginning of the nisuin. Before that, you didn't need the beginning, and now you need the beginning. So you could learn, like I said, one way, that they're two separate inyanim. You could learn another way based on the same inyan, that the that main thing is the nisuin, and the kinyan, the kiddushin the kinyan is for the נשואין. Or you could say the opposite, that the ikar is the kinyan, and the נשואין is just the end, because the way it comes out according to the sichah here, according to the Rambam, that there is really no act of of נשואין. נשואין is the living as a husband and wife! See, you have two things. You have sometimes you have a kinyan in order to do something. Here it comes out this is is the life. It's not like that it's a process of נשואין. Chuppah, that's what, chuppah is not called a kinyan. The נשואין is called a kinyan? נשואין is chuppah! No, kiddushin is called a kinyan! So it comes out that really what you're doing is the kinyan, and that's what it is. And how does it come to fruition, what what does it come על הפועל? When you get married. So the marriage is the end of the kinyan, you could learn. Because this is basically not a kinyan, this is the actual that the the actual living. You get married to be able to live together. The נישואין is not getting married. The נישואין is the living together. This is what it is. So that's not part So one is this This is the result of the kinyan. You make a kinyan, so and then you live together. So you can look at it all three ways. You could look at it like this, like this. Now, the difference It seems from a different halachah in the Rambam that the Rambam holds that really it is two separate inyanim. Now, what's meant so which way? The kinyan's first or the kinyan's second? Separate inyanim. No, the kinyan is always first, but they're both inyanim. Two separate inyanim. Not one is a beginning and an end. The first way that we said. Not that the kinyan is the beginning and that's just the end of the kinyan. Or one can the end is the thing and this is just the beginning at the end. From the Rambam it seems that this is two separate inyanim. Where do we see that it's two separate inyanim? So that's from a different halachah. When you give kiddushin, we have a מסדר קידושין. מסדר קידושין means you say the ברכה, the רב says the ברכה. Really what you who's supposed to say it, the חתן is supposed to say it. Since some חתנים at certain times didn't know, so they said the the רב should say it. What is the גדר of this ברכה? And then once, a couple at different times we spoke about this. What kind of ברכה? We know when it comes to ברכות, there are all kinds of ברכות. They're different kinds. There's ברכות הנהנין, ברכות for הנאה, there's ברכות המצוות, before you do a מצוה you make a ברכה, then there is ברכות שבח והודאה. Like you have to do before, the מצוה has to That that that comes out here. And there's ברכות שבח והודאה, ברכה of praise, praising Hashem. What kind of ברכה is this? So here we have a מחלוקת between the Rambam and the Rosh, and the Rosh says, remember I explained this once, the Rosh says that this is not ברכות המצוות. You always cant it because it's It's not a ברכה of a מצוה. The Rambam says it is ברכות המצוות. The Rosh, one of the קשיות the Rosh asks on the Rambam: if this is a ברכה for the מצוה of קידושין, no, besides that קשיא, he asks, you know what the ברכה should have been? We make a ברכה אשר קדשנו במצותיו וצונו על העריות, וצונו על העריות, the whole ברכה. We should We should have said אשר קדשנו במצותיו וצונו לקדש אשה. So we should have said. But then he has another קשיא. But either where do we see the Rambam says? Because the Rambam says that you have to make it before you give קידושין. And then the Rambam says, what happens if you didn't make it and you gave Kiddushin before? It's too late. You can't make the beracha. And he says, just like any mitzvah, you have to make a beracha before you do the mitzvah. If you did the mitzvah already, you forgot to make the beracha, and the mitzvah is over. If the mitzvah's like tefillin, it reminds you you're still wearing it. But if you did a mitzvah, you finished eating your matzah, and, hey, I didn't make a beracha. You can't make a beracha. Wash your מה שעשוי עשוי. You did it, you did it. Lulav, I think we also Unless you're holding it still. You can't start all over again, wait a certain amount of time, and then eat again, you can, and then make a beracha? Eat again? You're saying if you didn't make a beracha before you ate. The matzah? Yeah. You can't make You did the mitzvah already. Now when you eat later, it's not a mitzvah anymore. It's so you make a beracha on mitzvah, you don't make a beracha on mitzvah. Huh? So then where It's not a ברכת המצוה. So, Rambam says this is like ברכת המצוות. So one of the other kashiyot that the Rosh asks on the Rambam: we have a rule by mitzvot that if you have some a mitzvah that has a beginning and it has an end, you don't make the beracha till the end. That's what you do. You don't make the beracha till the end. So here we have Kiddushin and we have נישואין. This is the beginning and this is the end. So really you should make the beracha by the נישואין. And there is a דעת, that's in Shulchan Aruch it says, it says, when you make a sukkah, it's a mitzvah. It's an interesting דין. It's a mitzvah to make a sukkah. Why? It says in the פסוק, חג הסוכות תעשה לך. You should make it. So how come we don't make a beracha? Or Shehecheyanu. So he says since there's an end to the mitzvah, the end is sitting in the sukkah, so we don't make the bracha at the beginning, we make the bracha at the end. So they ask a kashya on the Rambam, according to you, Mr. Rambam, that you hold that it's a ברכת המצוות, so hachi nami it's a bracha on a mitzvah. But this is a mitzvah that has an end. So really you should make the bracha by the נישואין, not by the by the קידושין, not by the right? And that's one of the reasons they argue. So what's the answer? The answer is pashut. The Rambam holds it's not a beginning and an end. There's two No. I can It's two separate inyanim. There is one stage and this is a this itself is an end. Finish. Then you have another stage. So why make the bracha now at this stage and not at that stage? Why? Because this is an act that you're doing. The other one is is just Ah, the living part. The living part, yeah. And that's not an end anyway. You know like clothes. No. What do you mean? No, there's nothing that you're doing. And what you are doing is is is not a maaseh that finishes. Yeah, that's that's continued. We don't like clothes. It's better like גירות. Yeah? Yeah. By גירות there's an example. There How do you become a ger? So the Rambam says a ger you become by מילה, טבילה, and bring a korban. Now we all know that one of the things by מילה No, it's a separate issue. No, it's a separate first. It's first, but it doesn't matter. There when we're talking it's all one mitzvah, for instance making the sukkah is a mitzvah, but the mitzvah has a tachlit that this is a beginning of the mitzvah of sitting. Here we're saying that the Rambam holds the קידושין is not the beginning of the נישואין. קידושין is an end for itself. There are two stages. If you do קידושין, that's one stage and you make a bracha. By the נישואין, first of all you make other brachot, you make the שבע ברכות you make by the נישואין or you don't have to make a bracha. But you can't ask a question why don't you make the bracha later, that's only when you have one thing, one process with a beginning and an end. But just like we have getting back to the point, just like we have here benoge'a the אירוסין and the נישואין we have this question: is it two separate stages which have no connection, they just one comes after the other? Or is it one big process and that itself has a שאלה: is the beginning the אירוסין and the end - the main thing is the אירוסין and the אירוסין comes to its completion by the נישואין? Or farkert, the main thing is נישואין and it has a beginning from the אירוסין? The same thing we could talk about נערות and בגרות. That you could learn the same three ways. You could learn נערות and בגרות is it comes a stage as a נערה - נערה. Then there's another stage, a בוגרת, they have no connection, I mean they're two stages in life. Or you could learn that באמת a נערה is the main thing, once she becomes a נערה that's the transformation, but there is it takes a while till that transformation finishes. And therefore, when she became a נערה certain הלכות already change but not completely לגבי the father. Then when she becomes a בוגרת it's finished. Why? Because that's the end of the נערות. Or you could say farkert that the עיקר is the בגרות, and the בגרות that's what we're looking for, and the beginning of that transformation starts at a certain stage a little bit from נערות and goes on. And if we learn that that's the - you can go to the different opposite side. I'm saying, no, I said the third way. So there's three ways. One way is that it's two separate. The second way includes two possibilities. The second way is that it's a process. Now that process could be either way. Or it's this is the main thing is נערות and נערות has to come to a completion by בגרות. Or the opposite, the main thing is בגרות and then it has a beginning it starts by נערות. Now

if you learn these three ways we could learn that the three מן דאמרס here in the Gemara which is Rabbah and Abaye and Mar bar Rav Ashi each one hold one of these three ways and that's why - it just to go through maybe just the first one, just the first one to see. The first one was like this: they ask the שאלה why does the Torah tell us two words יצאה חנם אין כסף - one goes that she goes out as a נערה, one she goes out as a בוגרת. That's what he said. And he asks the question why do we need both? He said because if we wouldn't have both we'd think it's a נערה. So comes Abaye and asks him: so let it say clearly נערה and then we would know that and a בוגרת. אבל Rabbah learns the third way that the main thing is בגרות. Therefore, the fact that she goes out as a נערה is you know why? Because נערות is already the beginning of בגרות, that's why she goes out. באמת בגרות is the thing. So when we say a girl when she is not a קטנה anymore, she goes out from being an אמה עבריה, what makes her go out? בגרות. Ay we thought הלכה היא she goes out as a נערה? Okay, but a נערה is the start of בגרות. So according to Rabbah you can't ask me let the Torah - why does the Torah have to mention בגרות, both? Because that's what he wants to tell us. The Torah wants to tell us it is בגרות. If we wouldn't know we would think it's נערות. According to Abaye - and Abaye for that Abaye doesn't hold like that. Abaye holds second ways - this was the third - Abaye holds the main thing is נערות. So Abaye says adraba, let it say נערות, why does it have to say בגרות? And that's why Abaye comes and says: so what is the reason why the Torah - what does the Torah tell us? Individual Abaye... individual it would be an individual נערות? No no Abaye holds the second way. That it is a process but it's not בגרות the ikar, the ikar is נערות. So what does Abaye say why do we need both? To teach you that a woman who doesn't ever become a נערה still goes out. That's a big chiddush according to Abaye! Because he holds the main thing is נערות so we would think if there's no נערות she shouldn't go out. So because he holds the main thing is נערות. Comes Mar bar Rav Ashi, Mar bar Rav Ashi says: it's a kal vachomer. And he makes a kal vachomer. Because Mar bar Rav Ashi is the one that holds the first way. He holds it's two separate inyanim so he can make a kal vachomer one thing over the other. But according to him it's no kal vachomer. וחומר, because, no, but according to Rav, to Abaye, it's no kal vachomer, because the main thing is the נרות. So you can't make a The whole thing of בגרות is because of נרות, how could you make a kal vachomer? What is the kal vachomer? That מה דshe goes out by נרות, she doesn't go out for her father, she goes out for everybody, by בגרות not. The whole thing of בגרות, according to him, is only נרות. So if it's only נרות, you can't make it not two separate inyanim. So according to him, there is no kal vachomer, so according to him, he will think that always. According to both, there are no According to both, there are no kal vachomer. Who, who does Rav Who does He holds that the No, it doesn't No, it doesn't have to be. I just brought it as an example, because that's what you asked, because it's a It weakens his argument by saying it's Weakens his opinion, saying it's a kal vachomer, I mean It's had less strength Right. Because Because the ikar is the נרות. So you're gonna make a kal vachomer that she should go out by בגרות? בגרות מצד עצמו is according to him not not not a metziut. The whole metziut of בגרות is because of נרות, how can you make kal vachomer? You make a kal vachomer, therefore, what are we doing with that opinion? So, therefore, he has to come out, so by him the kashya that that Mar bar Rav Ashi asked that it's a kal vachomer is no kal vachomer. Okay. So, therefore, he says the chiddush is that even though she'll never become a נערה, still she which goes out by בגרות, but that's a big chiddush, because נערות is the ikar. That's for That's one of that that's a part of the two stages in the Right, so the first holds, for example, that that the ikar is בגרות, the second holds the ikar is נרות, but doing all the separate two separate inyanim? Two separate inyanim, but that's still part of the process. Somebody Naturally, it's a process, but it's not in halacha a process. Somebody becomes a ger, he didn't learn really Jewish Yeah. I mean he wants to be Jewish, he doesn't know how Jewish is yet. In fact he's a ger. And then you teach him As long as you tell him מקצת, it's a little bit of the mitzvot. How מקצת is מקצת? מקצת The ikar is he wants to be Jewish. No, mimela we don't do it now, obviously, but mimela you talk about עיקר הדין. Everything would be If you find somebody, the guy the guy Nowadays, it's never מקבל. No beit din, no Rav, no the majority will accept it unless he learned and knows and that. But ממילא עיקר הדין Who has what kind of authority does one have to have in order to be מגייר somebody? To be a dayan. Any three הדיוטות. So plenty of הדיוטות wouldn't know Most of the הדיוטות, if you're frum, you don't get involved in giyur. Has to be a שומר שבת. A normal person doesn't get involved in giyur. Never heard of a stam people get involved in giyur. So basically, if he doesn't know too much and he and he becomes a a Jewish He's a Jew. Yeah, מקצת, right? It doesn't matter how much he actually learned. Right, right. Went for one month or two years or whatever. Yeah. Yashar koach, yashar koach. Sounds like we have this, in רב מה מה מה עמד, what is the last with the kal vachomer? Mar bar Rav Ashi. Mar bar Rav Ashi. That's the highest מדרגה, על פי חסידות, isn't it? Explain. Because he doesn't have a good reason, but he still has an opinion. So a lot of people not of that of his stature do the same. Of his stature? Not of his stature. Oh, yeah, yeah. Offer an opinion with no reason. They really can't, not this guy. Right, like the people that that say that they don't know, there's different types of don't not know. You read the letter? You know?